I know a few years back we have talked about the M20 strengthened front stands with the larger tude half way down on the right side only. I cannot remember the conclusion to this all i can remember they were fitted to the latter contracts.
My XM20 has one of these fitted also it still has the flat WD footrests with rubbers over them. I have had the bike for years and it was very original till i dropped a M33 engine in. So maybe BSA were still using WD parts for their girder fork models before they brought out the tele fork models.
So do we know why this stand was strengthened on the right had side only.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

The post war M20 up to the end of girder forks (August 47 onwards) always had a component of military parts..Right after the war it was basically still the WD bike with the finishes altered, the side car frame and 'non cut off' military tank reinstated and field stand and pannier assembly removed..

It would take too long in this posting to go through the full spec. but it could basically be stated that BSA put the WD bike into civilian production in late '45 with few alterations..

Military parts were deleted as supplies ran down, notably the footrests that went in mid season of '47 and the left side mounted speedo..

The model was extensively revamped and fully civilianised with the introduction of telescopic forks...

Thus the strengthened front stay was still fitted to post war girder fork models...The strengthening of the stand was to do with the Army method of the recovery and safe descent of a very steep hill (after a failed ascent) when riding off road...

This is shown in the DR training film that is still in circulation...

I searched for 20 years to get this scrap of information but couldn't find the answer.(I even offered a reward for anyone who could provide documentary or other proof of an explanation)...

However, when I watched the DR film the 'penny dropped' and a check on the dimensions of various WD bikes front stands indicated it was the BSA one that needed strengthening for that purpose...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Actually the reason seems much more simple:

When the frontstay is used as a stand, the brakeleverpivot acts as a stop on the righthand tube. Without the strengtening the tube is easily bend.

I posted a picture here before to proof, will search for it.

What reward did you had in mind, Ian??

Here it is:

I must have missed your original post on the subject Michiel. But it does make more sense to me. I've never used my lower stay as a front stand, so never noticed that. I think Ian will need to see it in writing in a BSA document before he hands over the £500 reward

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Well i can see both sides to this, if the bike had to be dragged down a slope you would have to drag it on this side as to keep the oil in the oil tank. Also i see Michiel's point in the stop for the front stand, both points make sense.
Thanks for the info Ian on the footrests as i was thinking my XM was not as original as i thought, it does have the sidecar frame and the WD type speedo drive also the nice full front numberplate supports at each side.
I have made it unoriginal by fitting the M33 engine and OHV tank and rocker feed tee but i have all the parts to put it back original if need be. Problem is round here in the Pennines its just too hilly and i used to got fed up with ringing it in 3rd to keep it going up the hills so i stopped ridding it for a few years till i found the M33 engine in bits. I fitted it with a set of steel M20 flywheels so it has a longer stroke, it needs a 3mm packing under the cylinder and 3mm off the piston skirt. Doing this has tranformed the bike, infact its one of my favourite bikes and it could be put back to original easily if needed but i have no intention of doing that.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

Found the old thread:

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1275252&cmd=show

Apparently I failed to convince you guys at that time.

Cheers, Michiel

It all comes flooding back Michiel (Memory ) I guess the jury is still out and Ian gets to hang on to his 500 quid for a while Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Just read the old thread, thanks Michiel i knew i had read it before. Looks like the jury is still out on this one i can see both ideas but why just strengthen the M20 stand and not Nortons and REs they were the same tube diameter and would have the same problems when dragging them down a steep banking. Front wheel stop sounds good but useless when the wheel is removed unless you remember to tighten the fixings first. So hang onto your brass for now Ian but keep it safe as you may need to hand it out soon.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternet.com

I retain an open mind on this one..I have a high regard for Michiels opinions, he has come up with interesting ideas on a number of subjects and this one is no different...

Hopefully a piece of documentary evidence will turn up one day...

My main worry in the past was that I would be buried before ANY logical theory was proposed!!....

As for the 'reward'...find me the written proof.. ..(and it was only £10)... ....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian, have you tried it? just pull your bike on the frontstand you will see.

Anyway, it is clear to me, now and then you see the earlier plain stays on bikes which are onesided bend by pulling them too hard on the stand. The small tube is of course quickly bend when not to careful.

Reward is only joking of course, your contribution to this forum is amazing and helped me out many times, you're the one to be rewarded!!

Cheers, Michiel

I don't have much inclination to damage the paintwork on my front 'stand'..either by resting it against the pivot nut or by scraping it on the floor...(and I know Ron will be with me on this one!)

Generally I put a small jack under the sump guard (against a piece of wood) if I want to get the front wheel off the floor...

Not that I'm a fuss ass at all... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Front and rear wheels out at the same time...



Bugger that for a game of soldiers !

Donkeys years ago when I was a hippy an old bloke told me why the stand was strengthen and it was neither of the two suggestions so far. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was but it made perfect sense, I can see myself worrying about this in the early hours now!
Also, it's good to see that Michiel W knows how a valve should be fitted.
Regards
Richard

You can stop worrying, Richard, mistery is solved

There still are a few stubborn old blokes around who think it is for pulling the bikes down steep muddy slopes and lifting them out of deep dark ditches, but they will turn in time.....

Cheers, Michiel

I quite like Michiel's idea too, except you only use the front stand when you want to remove the front wheel, and then the strengthened section doesn't rest on the front brake arm because its removed with the wheel.

Pictures of 16Hs with bent front stands do turn up quite often and they never strengthened half the front stand to stop this, odd?

So in conclusion I still don't know the answer to this long running mystery.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Me too! And I have bikes with flimsier stands that also haven't been strengthened

Also I can't say I've ever noticed valve caps installed like that. Original pictures show the original type brass knurled back nut up against the rim and often with a 'Schrader Dublchek' valve fitted.

No criticism intended! It's all the fun of the debate. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

['except you only use the front stand when you want to remove the front wheel, and then the strengthened section doesn't rest on the front brake arm because its removed with the wheel..']

Good thinking Rob!...I have to admit that didn't occur to me at all although it should be quite obvious...But then I am a 'stubborn old bloke'.. ...

I wonder what the 'young whippersnapper' will have to say about that?...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I think Rik's picture above shows how you are supposed to use the front stand where its at its strongest in a straight up position.

Its a bit like the rear stand on an M20 they only bend and damage the rear frame when people misuse them by sitting on the bike whilst its on the stand.

These are not weaknesses at all, unless the human factor is introduced.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

The frontwheel and so the "stand-stop" is there when the bike is pulled on the stand, this movement gives risk of overpull and bending of the stand.

After the bike is on the stand and stationary, the stand is nearly vertical and the wheel can easily be removed.

So it is the movement of pulling the bike on the stand which can cause the bending.

As quoted, yesterday I nearly bended my plain frontstand when carefully trying.....

Ron, think the problem with the M20 is that the frontbrakepivot acts (probably unwanted) as a stop. When the stop wasn't there the frontstand would not bend. So I expect that your (equal heavyweight) bikes with flimsier stands don't have a stop like the M20.

Anyway, just analysing it..... Has anyone tried it by now ????


Ps, hope your not offended, Ian, just joking. What strikes me is that you're not willing to put your bike on the frontstand to see if it solves your 20+ year mistery....

Cheers, Michiel

I assumed you would pull the bike onto the rear stand first and then lift the front wheel until the front stand dropped vertically downwards, it would be quite tricky pulling it onto both stands at the same time?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Me too again. Michiel you wont offend Ian....or me! We solve these problems with these debates and if we don't like what you say, we'll just come round to your place and "Tidy Up" like Jack Nicholson. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

No, not offended at all Michiel.. ..I've worked in Engineering factories too long too be that thin skinned...

As Ron says these discussions solve most problems usually...I don't use the front stand generally as I do like to preserve the paint finish... but I will if I have to..

I think most people who know me realise I'm not too 'precious' about preserving everything like new... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

The other thing to consider is how often you need to jack up the front end of your WD motorcycle, personally I'm not doing much of a mileage these days so I probably only do it once a year just to check the bearings ect.

But a driver in charge of any military vehicle had to go through the task system each month, and from the books I can find it looks like the WW2 motorcycle orderly was expected to check brakes, wheel bearings and tyres for cuts and flints twice a month and be overseen by an NCO so they would have to be pretty adept at this without damaging the machine in any way.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk