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Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi, I hope I am on to the right person. Pete Jeffrey's has just sent through a picture on my Uncle Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A., he lived in Silvertown near the docks in East London. Sadly he passed away at a young age because of Asbestosis from working as a maintenance engineer at Tate and Lyle's in Silvertown. I would love to know if anybody comes up with any information about the bike and Regiment it is associated with. I take it the number 47 has some relevance, and of course the tank number, which I can only make out to be C***2904. Any more information will be very much appreciated. Would you be able to tell whether or not he was based in the U.K. or Europe? I myself went to Bletchley Grammar School which was built in the grounds of Bletchley Park. The original sports pavilion was our cricket pavilion. My mother worked as a cleaner at the Teacher Training College in Bletchley Park in the 1970's, I remember she had to sign an Official Secrets Act form, at the time we did not know why, but I gather there was still some GCHQ material on the site.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi Geoff
Welcome to the forum, you should really have started a new thread rather than hijack Hans but I expect he will forgive you.

I assume its the new forum picture, the missing numbers could be 475 but I can't really see the last 4 clearly enough to be sure it says 2904?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi Geoff,

I would help a lot if you could send me a good high resolution scan of that photo. The photo I have put on the forum now is not very clear.

Henk.

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi, I'll Email you the original photograph,however you will probably find it worst. I did try hard to make the picture clearer. Thank you for anything you may be able to find out, sincere regards Geoff Gammon. My mothers maiden name was Lindsell, it was her older brother.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi Rob, like Jenk, I'll Email you the original photograph, not that I think it will help. All the best and a Happy New Year! Regards Geoff. 475 looks as though it might be right? Do you know what the 47 means?

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Sorry.....should have read Henk not Jenk!

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Here a slightly better photo of Ernie on his BSA. I hope Rik takes a look at this photo, he can probably tell us a lot more about the 47 on the tank.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

The unit serial "47" has a couple of possibles depending on the coloured backing.

If its on black it could be the RAC Armoured Car Regiment from an Armoured Division.

If its on red over blue it could be the Royal Artillery Light Anti Aircraft Regiment of an Infantry Division.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Is that a straight through exhaust pipe or just the glare of the photo that makes it look like that?

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Unfortunately, without a formation sign visible (and after 1941 they were not applied to motorcycles), it is impossible to be certain and as Rob says, it could be an RAC unit or Royal Artillery. My suspicion is that it is a later war bike and probably, under the 1944 system indicates a Light Anti-aircraft unit forming part of an infantry division.

The photograph looks as if it was taken in the UK but that doesn't mean that he didn't serve overseas afterwards.

Really the only way to tell is to apply for his service records via the MOD in Glasgow. You will need his date of birth but a service number is not a requirement (it helps of course).

As he died over twenty years ago, one doesn't have to be next of kin but you will need to supply a copy death certificate (these can be applied for on-line but obviously date and place of death help).

If you already know his service number then I can let you know with whom he enisted...unless it was 1942 onwards in which case General Service Corps is all that comes up !

If you're thinking of applying for records an unsure of procedures, let me know and I can guide you through it.

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hello Mr or Mrs Gammon
I was interested to a picture of Ernie Lindsell that you posted my Father was one of his best friends in the 50s-70s as they worked together at Tate and Lyle.Sadly my father and mother passed away recently of asbestos and we are trying to find out how they would have got this disease from Tate and Lyle.
If you can provide me with any information I should be most grateful.
Jan Cooper
Daughterof Fred Cooper

email (option): fsjm3coopers@talktalk.net

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hi Geoff,

Looking at your Uncle on his machine I can see on his shoulder battlefield jacket what looks to be a 3rd Division Tricorn patch. If this is the case then this would mean that your Uncle is sat on a bike marked to the 3rd Divions LAA (Light Anti Aircraft Regiment) If your Uncle was in this regiment, then he would either be badged to the Royal Artillary or possibly Royal Signals. (3rd Div light anti aircraft battery's had Signallers attached to the gunners to assist with communications.

The 3rd Divisions Light Anti Aircraft regiment was the 92nd True Loyal Regiment consisting of 3 gun batterys, each battery had 6 x 40mm Light anti aircraft Bofors guns (These were originally trailered guns but just before D-Dat they were changed to SP (self propelled) Bofors guns.

I served with the 3rd Division between 2002-2007 as a Signaller. To that end I have dedicated an early M20 to the Royal Signals 3rd Div HQ, and a later war M20 to the Light Anti Aircraft of the 3rd Divion. The unit marking is identical to your uncles machine .

I hope I have successfully attached my photo for you to see.

I will endeavour to attach a 3rd Divion shoulder patch for a reference too... I do hope this has helped you a little? Of course .. nothing is definite ... but your uncles badge looks very much like a 3rd Div Tricorn and it was unique in design.

Kind regards,

Mark





http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/towersmark84/media/IMG_4412_zpsv8eqvrym.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w419/towersmark84/IMG_4412_zpsv8eqvrym.jpg

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

 photo IMG_4412_zpsgpopal2a.jpg

Here is my mid/late war machine posing in front of my Bofors gun, i have dedicated both to the light anti aircraft regiment of the British 3rd Division.

I had greatful help with unit markings from a veteran who actually served with F-Troop 92nd True Loyals Light Anti Aircraft unit of the 3rd Division on D-Day. He kindly informed me that each gun had 2 x WD motorcyles in order to keep vital links between each gun that could be some distance away from the next.

kind regards,

Mark

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

 photo IMG_4522_zpsotgrexpv.jpg

Hi Geoff,

Please see attached a picture of a 3rd Division Tricorn Patch. Please note a red triangle surrounded (protected) by 3 x black triangles. The division was nick named Monty's Iron sides, after Bernard Montgomery being in Command, and or 'The Iron Division'

The shoulder patch is still proudly worn by serving Soldiers today, the example you see here is a wartime one.

I know the colour or the detail of your uncles shoulder patch isn't very clear, but what is clear is a definite triangle patch, and this is very unique , i would bet he was 3rd Division.

kind regards,

Mark

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

* each gun battery of 6 x SP Bofors guns had 2 x WD motorcycles*

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Dear Mark, I cannot thank you enough for the information you have provided. In February I was in New Zealand visiting a cousin and whilst there I met up with Ernie's son Alan Lindsell. My cousins wife took me to a local Library in Auckland I found a page that stated that my Uncle was indeed in the Artillery Section. I have asked for a copy to be sent to me and I hope to post it on here in the next week. I would love to be able to contact the chap you mentioned who was in the same kind of unit. Sadly Ernie pasted away in 1973 aged 50 from asbestosis from working at Tate and Lyle, I was only 16 at the time so never managed to talk with him about his exploits. I would love to here from someone who shared similar experiences. Kindest regards to all who have contributed to this posting, it means so very much to me, he was my Mother's brother.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

The formation sign on his sleeve could also be 59th (Staffordshire) division (red pit-head on black slag heap)...This would require a blue square but that could be present without being clear.

Service records are really the only option here. Anything else is supposition.

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

OK, this maybe slightly subversive on this website but... I've notice an increasing trend for people "dedicating" their bikes to certain regiments/units/etc. on the basis their granddad served somewhere in 1946. This is fine and its their bike and they can do what ever they like with it but...and I can understand their desire to do so but these are the very machines which have their own history and are being striped of it to provided an imagined associated history.
This I believe is fundamentally wrong as it is first untrue and secondly misleads those who follow.
If you have an old bike, ride and enjoy it, if it had a know history educate those who are interested, if no one is interested just ride it. I have no idea of the service history of my M20 or my G3L but I do know my Dad would not be happy if I "assigned" them to units of the RAF where he served as is isn't true.
Thus I also believe we have a duty to preserve and propagate the history of our bikes if only because who else is doing to do it and if it isn't true it ain't
history.
Richard

email (option): richard177smith@btinternet.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

99% of ex-WD motorcycles had a long hard civilian life after demob and have no history to strip off other than signs of having been used as ride to work hacks before beeing left broken in the coal shed and a possible further life as a field bike.

I'd be the first to bemoan the removal of original markings but I've never come across it.

During the first batch of restorations back in the 1970s, often by ex-servicemen themselves, photographic evidence suggests that there was little research to back up half-remembered formation signs and census numbers were often replaced by the old chap's army number.

The army and the blokes who rode them couldn't wait to get shot of these old clunkers when it was all over. I don't think that we should be too precious about them.

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

I think if someone wants to build a "tribute bike" all good luck to them. It is an ACTIVE way of preserving history - maybe not for the machine, but for the memories the owner has of relatives living or departed, or of events they wish to remember. It is a lovely way to pay tribute to a person, a unit or a memory. Really, who gives a flying f&%k. It's their motorcycle to do with as they please, and in the end, a quick paint job will give a new owner a clean slate.

We are so lucky to have experts here who can tell us when "our" WM20 was dispatched and the tank number she would have worn. But, after 75 years, it's
most likely that every other piece of that machine has been replaced with another part with a different provenance. And then, they were decommissioned and entered civilian service...

Passing it off as a machine with that actual provenance (assuming it was not there) is another story, but I suspect people on this forum would never think of doing that.

What about all those people who strip down these old war-horses and sell-off the parts? Should they be stoned to death? Hell, every one of us has relied at least once on that trickle of old bits to keep our bikes running. Get over it, go for a ride (probably a bit bracing in the UK at the moment) and worry about bigger things.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Sorry Mr Smith, couldn't disagree more. People spend a huge amount of time and effort not to mention money, in preserving artefacts be it a folding para bike to a Supermarine Spitfire. It is not betraying or denying history merely by portraying a machine in a certain colour scheme as long as an explanation of the facts is given. If what you said, were true, that would make the RAF's Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight, the worlds biggest offenders. They repaint aircraft on each major service with a colour scheme representing an individual, squadron or event. To me, what matters most is the ordinary man's efforts to preserve extrodinary men's deeds. Most of us in our hobby display our machines publicly in one way or another and as we know there are an awful lot of people
"out there" who, haven't a clue,a lot of the time through no fault of their own. But, once a story or a snippet of history is passed on to them, the change in attitude can be nothing more than remarkable.So every time I take my WM20 out for a spin, I think of my late father in law ( whose name & sevice number is on the tank ) who left his WM20 in the English Channel at Dunkirk.I close this missive with the motto of the BBMF.
"LEST WE FORGET "

email (option): petethejeep@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

When I got my bike I had a choice of two and I chose the one with the red over blue of the Artillery as my Dad was a Bombadier in WW2. I doubt if the markings are original as the tank number is also the engine number as a previous owner obviously didn't know the real one. Also my bike is a 1940 deluxe frame with a 1942 engine, which history is the correct one...1940 or 1942?

I believe that tribute bikes may actually be truer to history, since most bikes are a hodge podge of engines and frames due to the service systems of the British army in WW2 and after. The tribute bike represents a bike of a particular regiment/division that did exist.

As stated above I would not like to see a bike with 'original' markings changed as that would destroy it's history......

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

My M20 was fully rebuilt and civilianised (in colour at least) by a dealer before selling it off to someone local to me in 1968...I'm the third post war owner after demob and I knew the other two...(one of whom was an ex DR)

Contrary to common belief it wasn't just lined up against a wall and sprayed...It was stripped to bare metal and properly resprayed in a fetching maroon colour...including engine, gearbox and magndyno!..So no original markings remained...

That maroon colour is still inside the headlamp shell as a momento of that part of its history...During my ownership it has had two 'military' paintjobs and sets of markings...European theatre drab with 30 Corps markings and desert sand with Phantom Signals markings...

The vast majority of WD bikes have no original markings and little traceable history so I guess some markings with 'family relevance' or a unit in which the owner has an interest is actually a logical choice....

I know my bike ended its career with a post war unit of the territorial army so should it be marked up for that unit?...Maybe...

I've now owned it for longer than the Army had it and I've very probably done more miles on it (well over 100,000)...

I reckon that gives me the right to my own bit of its 'history' and my chosen markings!... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

My goodness, I do hope I have not caused upset between those of the WD Motorcycle Forum. Let me speak as a total outsider. I attend various events where World War 2 motorcycles are in attendance, I can only say a huge thank you to everyone who owns one! I understand that during a bikes time in service anything and everything would have been pinched from another machine to keep it going. Early bikes with later levers, headlights, engines.......the list is endless. All that matters is that everyone is looking after their respect motorcycle and keeping it going for posterity. I am involved with Classic Cars, have been for years, I am 60, and all that matters to me is that they are preserved in what ever form, keeping memories alive. I would like to sincerely thank everyone for preserving there own bit of history. I myself would like to own one for the memories of my Uncle, however my costs would be limited to £3,000 so I cannot see it happening. As promised please find attached details of what I found for my Uncle.


Sorry I need to find out how to import my 3 photographs.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Hello Geoff, there's a small matter of my commission, yours "from up the road" Pete.

email (option): petethejeep@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Well I said it was subversive! But as far as I'm concerned each machine has it's own history for good or bad but to have another identity thrust upon it seems wrong and misleading to those who follow. So in my mind unless the mass of the bits of an artefact can be proven to have been in a particular environment at a particular period it is a fabrication, that is I believe in legal speak a lie. Honour your forbears by all means but don't associate them with stuff they never saw.
Richard

email (option): richard177smith@btinternet.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

['but to have another identity thrust upon it seems wrong and misleading to those who follow...']


I would have thought if you tell people you have applied (as opposed to 'thrust') a given set of markings to a vehicle in memory of a family member you're not misleading anyone...

Best not to get too carried away about a history that usually can't be traced...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

Richard, my motorcycle is not an "artifact". It is the thing I use to get to work and back every day. I take the greatest delight in the beauty of it's simplistic elegance and the fact that after 75 years, I can still use it for it's intended purpose.

It was dispatched in very early 1941 so while being made, the makers were under fire during Britain's darkest hour. Someone's granny donated her pots and pans to provide metal for the castings. It's value lies in the very molecules that make up the machine, not the paint on the outside.

I do not think it matters what colors I paint it and I don't understand why anybody would think they had a right to choose for me. I'll paint it flesh pink if I wish and dedicate it to a burlesque dancer - it will still be what it is. Maybe I should have kept it just as I found it? Image below

 photo IMG_0092_zpsdntmjyv7.jpg

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

And a very nice bike it is I'm sure Cas,and as I've said before its your bike and your can do with it what you like. But I still maintain my stance that there is a distinction between a bike, painting,furniture or any other "artifact" that has a place in history and one that portrays an applied (thrust?) history . Fine it at portrayal is clear and can not be "confused" with time, but we only have to look at the auction houses to see some of the optimistic provenance's on their offerings to see this effect, certain blue sports cars spring to mind.
Any way none of it really matters as we are just a bunch of old blokes riding around on older (mostly) bikes. I also don't like fancy dress parties but I am a fan of Tom Keating.
Richard

Re: Ernie Lindsell on his B.S.A

I disagree with you too Richard, I can see absolutely nothing bad about a tribute bike, I've put my M20 in various markings over the years, and whichever one it was in at the time it was a tribute to someone, and all the wartime veterans I've met have been happy with this.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Re: Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

I must say I very much agree with the comments posted by Cas...

The majority of the WD bikes out there wouldn't be on the road if they hadn't been rebuilt, either by the people that used them as cheap transport post war when no one bothered one jot about their 'history' or in latter years when enthusiasts for the machines rescued many from an inglorious end in a hedge or the local breakers...

At each stage a bit more history was added and a bit more of the original history removed and the bikes are none the worse for that in my opinion..That IS history in action...

I rebuilt one of my bikes (a basket case returned from Egypt) with the markings of the unit a family member was in at the time of his death on D Day...I consider that a great way to remember someone who died for our benefit aged just 21 years old...There is a bit of history that is worth preserving...

Of course if I adhered strictly to the preservation of its actual 'history' it would still be a basket case in the back of my workshop...

I think the mistake being made here is to ignore the fact that in the case of a vast number of machines there is no meaningful military history to preserve...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Hi Henk, can I send you these to add to the Ernie Lindsell post? Wilma

Hi, you did a superb job with the photographs I sent, thank you! Can anyone tell me what any of the writing means in this line of detail? Kind regards Geoff Gammon.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

Maybe of interest?

Hi, I came across this and thought it would be good to put on the site, kind regards Geoff Gammon. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702871/Treasure-trove-classic-cars-bottom-sea-The-British-Merchant-Navy-ship-carrying-military-vehicles-sunk-Red-Sea-Second-World-War.html
Just copy and paste to view.

email (option): wilma.gammon@sky.com

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