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When in the UK (briefly) and in the Middle East, Australian forces conformed with the standard British system of markings.
The 'Arm of Service' serial number and accompanying background colour indicate the type of unit. These varied from time to time for security reasons...and the Middle East was a law unto itself.
Under the instructions relating to Standard Unit Signs for Divisions, MEF, 21/9/1941, the 'AoS' 68 on a black background indicates Divisional Provost.
Black was the normal background colour for 'HQ' units.
I don't actually know if this system was used in the Far East but I imagine so. By the end of the war, it was pretty much standardised across all theatres.
The position of the markings on motorcycles was a bit hit and miss. The odd steel pannier toolboxes that Norton briefly used for a period during late 1940 / early 1941 were quite handy for AoS serials.
In terms of the UK War Office contracts, the pannier boxes appeared on C6653 (W18001 - W22000) and continued into C7353 somewhere around W31000 so I don't think that your bike would have had them, Rob. Yours is very much the early-war spec. If a WD bike, it would have had a rear carrier and no pillion (Does yours have a field stand lug and a pillion footrest lug on the drive side ?) I also suspect that it would have had an 8" headlamp originally. On War Office bikes, the 6 1/2" appeared around W60001 but of course this 'unknown' Australian contract is new ground for all of us !:-)
Thanks Steve - much appreciated. It looks like the photo was taken in the "Far East" and not Queensland (you can't trust war propaganda after all), on closer inspection the house in the background is almost certainly British Colonial architecture in Malaya or Singapore and not Australian. What's the title of the book? I'd love to get a copy.
Interesting information Rik - I can't believe how much knowledge is in this group.
You're correct on both counts re the build details of my bike:
- I added the Lycette pillion seat so my wife could go on rides with me. It wasn't fitted when I got the bike.
- I sourced and fitted the 6 1/2" NOS blackout headlight when I restored the bike in the 80's.....what I now find frustrating is that I think it was fitted with an 8" headlight but replaced it because I thought it was incorrect. I no longer have that headlight - bummer.
As far as I recall it has pillion rest lugs on both sides of the frame and no side stand lug....but I'll check when I get home.
When I restored it in the 80's the only reference I had was Roy Bacon's book "Norton Singles" - how I wish I had access to all the information now available.
Many thanks for all the information the Forum members are providing.
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
Re the headlamp, I bought an Indian made headlamp & blackout mask as I wanted the blackout. he mask is interchangeable with my genuine headlamp & vice-versa, so I was luck not to get a duff one. The headlamps seem to be OK as I have not seen any complaints about them but you have to be careful who you source them from.....
That's a shame about the headlamp Rob (I like the large ones !) You're correct about the sources of info though. When I started on my 16H, there was at least Orchard & Madden available but rebuilding an early one was a voyage of discovery. I bought a lot of incorrect parts to start with but they 'did' until the correct item could be located.
A lot of the information was out there but very few authors had been going back to original sources. As you'll know from the WD Norton site, the full spec for the pre-war WD 16Hs is listed in the factory ledgers. I've been fortunate enough to examine and photograph them....but until my trip with Jan and Rob van den Brink, this sort of info had apparently not been looked at for seventy years.
Henk's forum deserves thanks there as well, as my first acquaintance with Jan and Rob was via here...they're both the sort of 'internet friends' that sensible parents warn their kids about !
If you could look to see how many lugs there are on the drive side chain stay, I'd be grateful. These changes were not listed in the parts books. Certainly on WD contract bikes they appeared later than 1940...but the India Office machines had them pre-war as it was not contrary to Indian Army regulations to carry a passenger, whilst it was in the British Army....even though many units serving under the Indian Army were British...
The batch of eight machines with Vokes filter of which four feature in the photo on the other thread were green and to military spec and supplied via Disney in January 1938 so some military machines certainly went through them. Unfortunately, there are no surviving factory records showing sales after September 1939.
I wonder, bearing in mind that the British ministry inspector's stamp was in the same location, if Disney had a QC engineer in Bracebridge Street as well and he was responsible for checking that machines for the Australian Army were to specification before they were shipped. More new questions, Great Stuff !
Indeed Rob, no extra pillion lug which means that you have the choice of field stand or pillion rest. There was a bolt-on cast lug supplied as part of the pillion equipment to retro fit on earlier bikes.
The rear lugs are a mirror image of each other. The small lug below is a duplicate of the silencer mounting, but they were of course used on the twin-port machines.
The larger opening is indeed used for sidecar fitment.
If I could trouble you for one last thing, could you photograph your front fuel tank mount from the rear ? It is as yet unclear when the reinforcing rib was added.
I'm still extremely chuffed to learn that these 'missing' bikes were an unknown Australian contract. I should have considered the possibilty as Jan was aware of direct Royal Enfield sales. I wonder if there were others ?
Rob, if you're minded to do some local research, it may be possible to find out more about Disney's. Was it related to the former Lord Mayor of Melbourne ?
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/disney-sir-james-stanley-10021
If so, there may be archives from the company somewhere or certainly trade adverisments from the late 1930s..It may even be that obtaining a substantial government contract was newsworthy at the time.
No worries Rik, no trouble at all, I'll photograph that part of the frame on the weekend and post it. The tank isn't bolted on at the moment while I wait for confirmation on how I should repaint it with the right markings.
As far as Disney was concerned - that's a great idea to see what news there was at the time of Government contracts. I'll get onto that!
Yes, the cycle and car business was owned by the Lord Mayor James Stanley Disney and was in fact named J S Disney Pty. Ltd.
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
Rik, you're a genius! It didn't take me more than a couple of hours searching old Commonwealth of Australia Gazettes online to find contracts awarded to private motorcycle dealers for Norton WD 16H motorcycles, Hazell and Moore in Sydney and Disney's of Melbourne! The timing of the Disney contract, April 1940, fits perfectly with the build date of my bike, June 1940. Your theory that the Norton factory stamped the name Disney where the inspection mark normally goes appears to be correct! At the least the genesis of my bike is now determined - now to figure out what happened at the end of its war service.
I wonder how many Nortons they would have purchased from the factory for GBP 8,725?
Many thanks for the tip!
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
This is great news Rob! The amount of information that is available in Australia on line today is amazing!
Which website did you use? Trove? Could you use a search function or did you have to go through all the pages?
Any chance of doing a search for similar Royal Enfield or BSA entries? Now that would make my (and Henk's and Rob Miller's) day!
Cheers,
Jan
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
Thanks Rob, very interesting.
It looks like some BSA M20s went to Australia through Schofield Goodman Brothers of Birmingham in 1939, they are listed in the BSA ledgers as "WO Finish". WM20 2051 2052 2053 2056 2057 2062 2063 2065 2067 2068 2070 2071 2078 2079 2081 2084 2088 2097 2098 so far in the Australian ledgers but more oddly in the BSA ledgers?
Rob
email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk
More or less the same situation with the Enfields. The Australian Army bought a batch of 75 "model L" (500cc side valve) motorcycles to "Military specification" through Brown Bros of London in August 1940. Some numbers are missing in the AWM ledgers, but also the factory ledgers seem to have some missing numbers... It would be nice to find some extra information in the Australian Archives!
Cheers,
Jan
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
I'd certainly be interested in a pillion rest casting Ron and a field stand if anyone out there has one to sell (even one needing repair).
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
Hi Rob. The few mountings that I got made were made to order and are long gone. I'm not sure if the other guys who had one actually used them? The field stands do come up now and then and sometimes even brand new in their box.
I would suggest a shout in the parts wanted section here and on Rob's WD Norton site and a continual search on ebay. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Something for Jan, Rob and Henk - here are some Royal Enfield and BSA requisitions by the Commonwealth and filled by private motorcycle dealers. The big one is for GBP 13,521 to Finlay Bros Melbourne for BSA motor cycles. That would have bought a few bikes you would think....maybe 100 at wholesale price? Looks like the first half of 1940 was extremely busy as far as Commonwealth requisitioning for military equipment...including prophylactics :)
If you'd like to do your own searching:
Search on "trove.la.gov.au" for the motorcycle name, e.g. BSA - note: they're referred to as "motor cycles" (two words).
Filter for "Gazettes" and then decade (1940-1949) - you can be more specific and select the year, but that's not really necessary.
Trove will show that the records aren't available yet "coming soon" - but this is an error, and I've been told by the National Library where to access them.
Then go to the website for Commonwealth Legislation "legislation.gov.au"- strange location for the archives I know. From there look up "Gazettes", then "Historical" and find the Gazette edition that's listed in Trove. The next part is a bit tricky - don't take the page number you get from Trove for granted - sometimes it's a page or two out.
Yep, the amount of archival information available now is excellent.....pity I spent days at the Australian War Memorial Research Centre fruitlessly looking through the old fragile books a few years ago - still that sort of thing is character building...or so I'm told.
I should have started this post with a title like "Australian WW2 Military Motorcycle Requisitions"!
To say this is fun is an understatement!! I've learnt more in the last month about WW2 motorcycles than I have in the last 30 years.
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
No worries Ron, thanks for the reply - will do.
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
Righto, back to the main purpose of the post - the military markings.
Below is a Dispatch Rider's BSA back on home turf during the war - Sydney (from the AWM photo archives). Looks like the only marking on the home service bike's is the Army registration number on the petrol tank.
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
Hi Rob,
Thank you so much for this very useful tutorial! I wouldn't have found this myself...
Just did another search. For the Enfields there's only one "important" entry in the Gazettes, the one that you also showed in your post above: Thursday 22 February 1940 (Issue No.34): "Requisition No. 8410.—Royal Enfield motor cycles, for Ordnance Stores, £1,763 4s. 2d.—Stewarts' Motor Cycles Pty. Ltd., Melbourne". The other "requisitions" that I found are for spare parts...
But as we've seen so often, this discovery brings us more new questions than answers! Enfield delivered a batch of 75 "model L" bikes ("Military specification") through London exporters Brown Bros in August 1940. And there was an Australian contract for 1.000 WD/C bikes, delivered from November 1940 until the autumn of 1941. The factory ledgers only mention "Australian Military" for this contract, no agent or importer / exporter. Neither the date of the Model L batch nor the WD/C contract seems to match the date of the Requisition... On top of that, £1.763 would have bought approximately 30 - 35 motorcycles in February 1940. Both the Model L and the WD/C batches were (much) bigger than that...
The other option would be that this is a batch of civilian motorcycles, impressed by the Government / Army. In that case they would no doubt also be listed in the AWM126 books, in between all the other civilian impressed entries. I have added all the Enfields in an Excell sheet, and added the information from the factory ledgers to each entry. When I check the names of the dealers in this list, they obviously all come from Australia, but the name Stewarts' doesn't appear in this list!
More research will be needed here!
Cheers,
Jan
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
Hi Rik,
"If I could trouble you for one last thing, could you photograph your front fuel tank mount from the rear ? It is as yet unclear when the reinforcing rib was added" - Sorry, haven't figured out how to insert the previous post in the cool inserted box yet.
Here are the photos you requested - is this the right area you were wanting? Hope they answer your question:
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
email (option): wd.register@gmail.com
just saw this on the web: old bike australsia article on your bike:
https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/old-bike-australasia-norton-16h-war-horse/
Rob, Thanks for the extra photos. You have the early, weaker tank mount (as have I on W4216). The earliest certain date that I have for the reinforced mount is Kostas' W19518 which dates from the latter part of 1940 so we're now a little closer to pinning down when the change actually occured.
The extra research seems to be paying dividends too. It will require further analysis to see how many of the W12000 series were delivered and to where. 'H&M' were certainly listed in the pre-war Norton ledgers but I don't recall them in connection with any military type machines.
The WD contract commencing at W14000 had a price per machine of £52-17-0. These were machines supplied delivered to UK destinations and with a two year (!!) guarantee. It's clear from civilian sales that prior to WW2, the overseas agents purchased ex-works and were responsible for transport and also for all warranties. Presumably they had a claim against the factory but the end-customer does not seem to have had. I think that we can therefore assume that Disney's paid Norton something less than £52, but charged the Australian Government considerably more !
We also don't know if these contracts included an agreed quantity of spares - UK WD contracts often had 10% spare engines and frames and 5% spare gearboxes.
Yours is the only survivor known in the W12000 series according to Rob vd B's lists and we know of no W11000s or W13000s.
Yes, Ron. It has the ridge right along the back rather than just the two 'gull wing' lugs. You also have the gearbox lug casting which comes up higher than the mount - also a strengthening mod.
Unfortunately, all these mods appeared fairly early on so don't help me much in dating later-war frames. I wish that there had been some later changes as well.
Wasn't yours also lacking some toolbox mounts as it was from C6653 ?
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Indeed, Ron. All the photographic evidence shows that C6653 (W18001 - W22000) was fitted all the way through with the pannier toolboxes (although they weren't shown in the spare parts lists). They were listed for the following contract - C7353 (W26001 - W43000) but then discontinued around W31000. Apart from 780 supplied to the RAF, we have no trace between 22000 and 26000 - clearly not a WD (army) contract. It would have been nice to find some of those numbers in the Australian lists too.
Yes Rik. My 16H came to me in civy trim with quite a few early features but fitted with pannier rack and pillion seat etc. So I decided to depict the bike as being brought up to a later war specification. My 1940 M20 is the same! Not so important for me as I have other bikes that I've devoted time and effort to make period factory correct....
And it's so handy having panniers.
I did have a matching pair of pannier toolboxes and kick myself for letting them go, just in case I felt the need to convert it back to original spec Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Can someone please tell me whether my 1940 build WD16H should have rubber oil lines or plated copper pipes?
Regards,
Rob
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com
I believe they should be a mix of both as per the above photograph.
Early 1940 machines were fitted with the pre-war type of dull-chromed copper piping. The feed in particular is an odd size as the tank filter has a 5/16" fitting and the engine is 1/4" which requires a nipple which sits inside the lower end of the 5/16" pipe rather than outside.
There was a D.M.E. circular dated 24/2/41 detailing fitting of flexible petrol and oil pipes 'as necessary'. It is likely that production had been amended prior to this but on the UK contracts the spare parts lists didn't catch up until contract C10217 / W45001 but it has long been evident that the spare parts lists were type-set some time prior to production.
I suspect that yours would have had the rigid copper type.
What we really need is for someone in Australia to find a spare parts list for the Australian contracts !
Thanks Rik,
Mine had the copper pipes fitted when I got it - so that checks out.
A spares list would be good - will ponder where best to search.
On a different topic - does anyone have a photo of the Black Manilla Mask fitted to early headlights for blackout purposes?
Regards,
Rob
email (option): robert.g.elliott@gmail.com