Fascinating stuff, Doug. Unfortunately, although fairly well informed on NW Europe markings, I have no idea about NZ use of yellow. Post-War British RASC used a blue / yellow diagonal split.

What does the Australian list state in terms of diposal on this machine ? Was it transferred directly to NZ Govt. ?

Hi Bob,

Your tank number is 13292

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi Rik

The ones with the question marks aren't in the Australian ledgers (yet) so this one may have been shipped direct to New Zealand or taken back there with the New Zealand Army from the Middle East or other theatre?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I don't believe that New Zealand took any equipment back. The Australian forces returned for operations at home and in The Far East.

New Zealand stayed on and fought their way up Italy.

There are WD16Hs in NZ too so presumably some shipments from ordnance stocks.

Hi Doug
I am in Auckland. You are lucky to have such a complete bike!!
Mine was a frame engine and gearbox with miss matched tank and forks.
The bike is made up of around 95% original parts mostly sourced through ebay,Russell Motors(I visited them twice), Draganfly and some parts through trademe and another owner in Coatesville.
The NZEF did have them in North Africa and as collectors of militaria my son and I decided that we would paint it in desert yellow with the fern and its original C number.My son's friend who is a sign writer will do this.
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

During the war there was an assumption that Japan would try to invade Australia so its not a surprise the home forces were built up to such a degree, and its a big place so the troops would have had to be mobile.

New Zealand being further from the Japanese was probably considered less of a priority and given proportionality less equipment, but judging by what armour is still there today they must have had quite a few motorcycles too.

Perhaps something else to consider is how a Division travelling to and from New Zealand and Australia to the Middle East would usually be on a fast liner troopship which had no space for vehicles.

And I was under the impression that vehicles usually stayed in a theatre and were passed from one unit to another so perhaps we need to look at pictures of motorcycles in N Africa and Italy to see if they appear later in the Australian ledgers.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Henk

Thanks for sorting out my number.

Bob.

I've got nothing but admiration for all you 'number crunchers'...

I'll spend all day poring over manuals, standards books and other related technical data in my quest to explore all the physical details of the bikes I'm interested in, but lists of numbers?...That connection isn't wired into my head...

However, it's in those lists and archives that the historical connections are made and it's plain from this thread alone it's vital work...

Keep at it!!....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Bob,

With the excel sheet it's a matter of seconds to find out what the number is and if the frame number is already in the list or not. Making the list is quite a different matter but we are nearly there it seems.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Here is one that might interest the Australian M20 chaps - a story from Darwin about a dispatch rider who was involved with 'Z' force.

The Tank number on his bike is 90187 which hasn't been posted yet (well, the picture of the ledger has but the download link appears broken).

It is the only wartime photo I have seen with the locally made 'Bryant' air filter fitted.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

Ledger number 16 is now available. Census number 90187 is BSA WM20 72286.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Most are in the Excel sheet already Loads of Harleys and Indians in book 16, few Enfields.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi all, I am the owner of wm20 61169 from contract c11101. It's fitted with a m21 engine number ym21133, any info in the Aussie records regarding this frame number. Bike is located in Brisbane. Cheers. Peter

email (option): peterwaller10@hotmail.com

If ypu download the ledger 15 there is this entry so Aust reg 83812.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

I've been puzzling over the "S Park" or "Sub Park" as its often written in red, it doesn't seem to appear with any machines which have "Boarded 33" or "Boarded 40" against them.

Any ideas what theses terms mean?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

8th Division "Ammunition Sub Park": from this website:

8th Australian Division

A monument commemorates the 8th Australian Division which served in World War Two.

The 8th Division of the Australian Army was formed to serve in World War II, as part of the Second Australian Imperial Force, who were in turn, part of the Allies of World War II. The 8th Division was raised from regular army units and new, all-volunteer infantry brigades, from July 1940 onwards. As war with Japan loomed in 1941, the division was divided into four separate forces, which were deployed in different parts of the Asia-Pacific region. All of these formations were destroyed as fighting forces by the end of February 1942. Most members of the division became prisoners of war, and a large number died in captivity.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thanks Jan

So its like a RAOC Depot, and it may have been where the machine was sent and stored prior to being disposed of.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Interesting what turns up
Regarding slightly newer machines.
The initial contract for B40GA's was 472 bikes.
These have been confirmed in the BSA despatch records as numbers 001 to 472 as 2 batches
However the army records go up to 562 so it looks like there was at least an additional 90 bikes ordered.
Very interesting.
Down side is no record who they were sold to just disposal dates.
So that blows my last chance for posterity.

Even worse I am now screen blind & my WM20 is still yet to surface.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Hi Ron
If you Google trademe nz under motorcycles there is an 1941 Indian currently for sale and if you look at the questions and answers there is some information that you may find interesting regarding nz Indians.
I prefer my WM20!!!
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

Thanks John. I can confirm the benefits of a 600cc upgrade. I love my 741B but much prefer to ride my WM20 (600cc also). Which is why I built an M20 special with a 741 engine.

The auction bike is currently at the equivalent of £12,000, so probably a bit to go yet. A link to the auction.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-1228318146.htm#qna

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi
Another listing on trademe NZ which may be of interest
A ?1938 Triumph project which could have a military history
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

Interesting sorry in the NT News about the despatch rider. My WM20 is garaged not far from there in Darwin.

email (option): Dave_p_mitchell@hotmail.com

Hi David
Just read the story, interesting.
I once met a bloke who'd ridden BSAs as a convoy escort between Alice Springs & Darwin. Unfortunately conversations were brief so I never got any stories.

Henk, thanks for the info on my WM20 58162 matching numbers. Do you have the tank number on your spread sheet ?
Baz

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

Matching engine & frames numbers are generally found on bikes that were sold unused at the end of the war.
Mine wm20-78096 does not appear in the registrar .
I was told that the UK dumped a lot of surplus bikes into OZ in order to get some foreign currency.
We cerinally never ordered the hundreds of Corgies that were sold in Melbourne, & I doubt we ordered all of the LE vollos either.
After we pulled the troops back from Europe to defend OZ relationships between the Aust DOD & the UK wen very sour so we mostly bought Indians from the USA as the UK refused to allow their factories to supply OZ till after Hitler was defeated .
We have been exporting them back to the USA ever since .

And reading through this entire thread again , there was also A Victoria Barracks in Paddington Sydney.
In fact it is till there .
Don't really know what it is used for other than court marshals.
When I had the courier business, on of my customers had the contract for transcribing court marshals so I would turn up there every siting day at 3:05 precisely to pick up the tapes then in the morning drop off the transcriptions between 5:45 & 5:55 .
Big poo fight should I be more than a minute late .
They often held them over the Chrismass / new year period when a lot of the regulars were on leave so yes I did do the occasional run on the WM20 .

WM20 58162 is on page 165 of book AWM 126 15

Rob

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C2143582?image=165

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Trevor its interesting that yours isn't listed as there are quite a few from that series there.

90332 77999
90213 78013
90446 78017
90443 78020
90407 78026
90313 78033
90365 78034
90442 78035
92607 78043
92583 78045
39918 78050
92595 78056
92605 78067
92593 78076
92599 78082
92592 78083
92586 78098
92597 78107
92606 78112
92596 78121
92584 78135
92601 78141
92598 78164
92588 78172
92585 78173
92602 78180
92591 78195
92589 78270

I wonder if all the machines sent from the UK at that time went into this "Military" system, and does it include vehicles passed to the Royal Australian Air Force, Royal Australian Navy and other needy services such as the Police, Civil Defence, Post Office who were unable to make replacements through the usual peace time system?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Thanks Rob, that link didn't work. I'll see if I can get on the site and search for that page. Baz

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

Found that Rob. Interesting it was in Western Australia and still is. It was sold on to local dealer Mortlock Bros (Mortlock Suzuki)

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

I am the 3rd owner
The second owner told me the first owner bought it brand new at a post war surplus auction and did all of the modifications ( 250 Empire Star chrome tank & wheels, deluxe chromed damper knob he had the fork links, foot brake & front engine plates all chromed as well .
I found the Sloper deluxe steering damper knob and made the long rack , otherwise the bike is as I got it .

IT is weird that such a low number would still be unused at the end of the war though .
I have come across a few with close numbers over the years that also have matching numbers.

If it had been bought in the 60's to 90's then I would have suspected it was a new machine, kept for back up as we did not retire all of the WM20's till 1974.
I did download all 25 of the ledgers and went through them several times just to be sure I had not missed it.
Not a total waste of time as I did find the 3 B40's I bought in the 82 & 84 and the landlords Indian.
The landlord found several vehicles his father / grandfather bought for use on their farm .