There are now nearly 9000 Australian BSA WM20 in an Excel sheet combined with their Australian tank numbers. Up to now it wasn't easy to find out what tank number an Australian BSA had but with this list it's easy to find out.

This list is still growing and more numbers will be available soon.

This is all put together by Rob Miller and me. Rob Miller who can type lightning fast it seems.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Nice work guys, what sort of years are we looking at?

So far it are WM20 frame number from WM20 1000 up to WM20 85000 but not all are in the list yet. This are numbers from 1939/1940 up to 1943.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Its a very interesting list of numbers if you like that sort of thing

Looking at Henk's list of surviving machines frame and engine numbers page there must be more to come as there is a block of M20 still in Australia today which doesn't appear yet.

But so far by British contract these Australian records contain:-
C7287 1441 machines
C9310 2752 machines
C11101 2364 machines
C12424 760 machines
C13290 80 machines

There are some long unbroken runs of frame numbers but so far it looks like all these machines were sent to British depots prior to being sent to Australia rather than straight from the factory but we can't be sure.

And I was hoping this would give a few clues to batches supplied to other commonwealth countries and New Zealand is interesting, Henk only has a few machines listed in New Zealand today.

WM20 40775 originally Australian C13709
WM20 45107 ?
WM20 54567 ?
WM20 55877 ?
WM20 58518 spare engine originally Australian C87442 Western Australia
WM20 63608 spare engine originally Australian C87652 Western Australia
WM20 105838 ?
WM20 109711 ?

Some of these "?" probably went straight to New Zealand and we may able to confirm that if more of the Australian records are published.

Fascinating stuff

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, presumably the C7287 machines include a quantity that returned with the AIF from the Middle East ?

There was at least one wartime batch of Nortons supplied direct, as they had been pre-war. After May 1940, I suspect that WD had first call and only sent on what could be spared.

Getting on for 10% of total production is quite impressive though. I hope that the Australians remain grateful !

"Now listen here, my good man, we're sending you ten thousand of our slowest motorcycles !"

Rik you are quite correct many of the AIF machines were later converted to AMF so there is more work to do here, and the list will be a bit shorter in total machines.

Now what's the best way of putting this onto the spread sheet?????

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Excellent work! The effort that you guys put in to research and documenting all the data never ceases to amaze me. Out of interest, has anyone ever indexed and documented all the known photographs of ww2 motorcycles showing contract numbers so they could be crossed referenced against all the known existing machines? Would be amazing to be able to link a wartime photograph to a surving machine.

email (option): glenn_mullan@postmaster.co.uk

great effort guys , as owner of this WM20:WM20 57791

i look forward to learning the australian tank number

from this forum i have obtained the British contract number and tank number :

WM20 57791 had the Australian AMF serial 83629

And you will find on page 29 of this book

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/AWM2016.38.202

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

thanks rob -

actually found it on page 46.




two questions :

does anyone know what 'VB' was ... apart from well known Aussie beer(lager)..

and I assume the red is the disposal to 'MC traders' but what is 'SAN 5166'

(or 5/66- which I would think was May 1966)

Hi Rob
As the owner of 40775 it would be interesting to find out how it made its way to NZ.I do have a set of engine cases that are also of Australian origin.
40775 lives again after 5years of sourcing parts and a bit of procrastination!!
Will send Henk a photo to put up once the C number and insignia are painted on the tank.It is painted desert yellow and will have a black square with a white silver fern painted on it.I will keep its original C number not the Australian one!!!
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I'm not sure about the "B" but "V" was Victoria.



Q – 1st Military District (Queensland)

N – 2nd Military District (New South Wales)

V – 3rd Military District (Victoria)

S – 4th Military District (South Australia)

W – 5th Military District (Western Australia)

T – 6th Military District (Tasmania)

D – 7th Military District (Northern Territory)

email (option): brimorest5@bigpond.com

brian thanks :

learn something new every day

from wiki:

Greetings from an occasional Australian lurker. This obviously interests me, & thanks a million to those hardy souls prepared to put this sort of work in.
Unless I'm misreading something here I can't work out how to access these numbers, or aren't they released yet? I can roughly date my WM20 but that's it.
Bob

Hi Bob,

You can down load them on the AWM website but even then it's hard to find your tank number as the frame numbers are all mixed up.

We are busy putting these numbers in an excel sheet and sort them by frame number what makes it very easy to find a tank number. Still loads of work to do to complete the list, but your frame number might already be in the list we have done so far.

There are nearly 10.000 BSA's in the list so far.

If you let me know your frame number I can find out if it's in the list already.

Henk.

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Bob, there are 10 (just checked and there are now 15) scanned ledgers available to download from the AWM website here: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/AWM126/

I have found 7 numbers from frame numbers for myself and associates and it took quite a bit of looking - can't imagine how much work went into recording thousands of these.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

Henk & Ray

Thanks for the prompt replies. I thought the AWM site referred to might be what I needed but had trouble (my fault, a / too many as I discovered) getting on to it. I've got it now.
Henk, the frame (and engine) of my bike are 41037.
The fact the numbers match & the condition the bike was in when I got it makes me think it had an easy life in the military & a hard one afterward. But who knows?

Thanks again for the help.

Bob.

Thanks for the link.I have 78096 so it looks like it might be a volume or two away.
The previous owner ( 2nd) told me the original one bought it crated from the army.
Again I have matching engine & frame numbers with a civilian tank & wheels and no workshop tags or any other military markings other than some drab no showing through the chipped off / worn away black paint.
Interesting that they only seemed to impress UK motorcycles ( well all I have seen to date ).
This is rather interesting as they ordered or got a lot of Indians and before WWII Australia was Indian's largest export market and some have inferred that we were actually a larger market than the USA itself.
There is still a lot of Indians on the roads down here despite at least 3 people activly shipping them back to the USA.
Yet no Indians appear to have been impressed.
Also noticed that BSA had slipped a few slightly older bikes in order 868 some of them had numbers in the 5,000 while the rest were in the 40,000 to 50,000 range but then again it was wartime.

As for making a database of them, more strength to your fingers.
At last the clerk who entered the motorcycles has a nice clear hand.
The bod who did the trucks, well some fun reading those.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Hi Bob,

Your tank number is 13292

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Talking of the "Yanks" I have been looking at the Norton Big4s in the Australian ledgers and one appears to have been given to the US Navy

Book 15 (202) - Serial AMF 85285 - Frame/Engine S2811

I wonder what they did with it?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi All
Re New Zealand WM20 54567 in the list above. The bike has matching engine number and the following I uncovered as I sanded back the paint.
C number on tank was C4636155 complete on RH side, partially previously sanded /repainted away on left side,
BSA transfers on both sides of tank,
Contract plate on rear mudguard extn. Contract No C11101,
NZ Army vehicle No on each side of front mudguard NZ.16097,
RH side of petrol tank yellow square with white 22
LH side of tank black and white marking which could not be deciphered due to previous sanding/repainting,
On oil tank yellow diamond with undecipherable white lettering inside.
Does anyone know what the army markings indicate?
The bike was hand painted black and reasonably complete and running when I got it off a farm in the mid 1960s and is currently just about repainted with engine and gearbox rebuilt ready to go back in.
John
Who are you getting to to the numbering on the tank? Where abouts in NZ are you - I'm looking for a signwriter in greater Wellington area.
All the best for Christmas
Cheers
Doug W

email (option): watsond@xnet.co.nz

Fascinating stuff, Doug. Unfortunately, although fairly well informed on NW Europe markings, I have no idea about NZ use of yellow. Post-War British RASC used a blue / yellow diagonal split.

What does the Australian list state in terms of diposal on this machine ? Was it transferred directly to NZ Govt. ?

Hi Rik

The ones with the question marks aren't in the Australian ledgers (yet) so this one may have been shipped direct to New Zealand or taken back there with the New Zealand Army from the Middle East or other theatre?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I don't believe that New Zealand took any equipment back. The Australian forces returned for operations at home and in The Far East.

New Zealand stayed on and fought their way up Italy.

There are WD16Hs in NZ too so presumably some shipments from ordnance stocks.

Hi Doug
I am in Auckland. You are lucky to have such a complete bike!!
Mine was a frame engine and gearbox with miss matched tank and forks.
The bike is made up of around 95% original parts mostly sourced through ebay,Russell Motors(I visited them twice), Draganfly and some parts through trademe and another owner in Coatesville.
The NZEF did have them in North Africa and as collectors of militaria my son and I decided that we would paint it in desert yellow with the fern and its original C number.My son's friend who is a sign writer will do this.
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

During the war there was an assumption that Japan would try to invade Australia so its not a surprise the home forces were built up to such a degree, and its a big place so the troops would have had to be mobile.

New Zealand being further from the Japanese was probably considered less of a priority and given proportionality less equipment, but judging by what armour is still there today they must have had quite a few motorcycles too.

Perhaps something else to consider is how a Division travelling to and from New Zealand and Australia to the Middle East would usually be on a fast liner troopship which had no space for vehicles.

And I was under the impression that vehicles usually stayed in a theatre and were passed from one unit to another so perhaps we need to look at pictures of motorcycles in N Africa and Italy to see if they appear later in the Australian ledgers.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Henk

Thanks for sorting out my number.

Bob.

I've got nothing but admiration for all you 'number crunchers'...

I'll spend all day poring over manuals, standards books and other related technical data in my quest to explore all the physical details of the bikes I'm interested in, but lists of numbers?...That connection isn't wired into my head...

However, it's in those lists and archives that the historical connections are made and it's plain from this thread alone it's vital work...

Keep at it!!....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Bob,

With the excel sheet it's a matter of seconds to find out what the number is and if the frame number is already in the list or not. Making the list is quite a different matter but we are nearly there it seems.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Here is one that might interest the Australian M20 chaps - a story from Darwin about a dispatch rider who was involved with 'Z' force.

The Tank number on his bike is 90187 which hasn't been posted yet (well, the picture of the ledger has but the download link appears broken).

It is the only wartime photo I have seen with the locally made 'Bryant' air filter fitted.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

Ledger number 16 is now available. Census number 90187 is BSA WM20 72286.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Most are in the Excel sheet already Loads of Harleys and Indians in book 16, few Enfields.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi all, I am the owner of wm20 61169 from contract c11101. It's fitted with a m21 engine number ym21133, any info in the Aussie records regarding this frame number. Bike is located in Brisbane. Cheers. Peter

email (option): peterwaller10@hotmail.com

If ypu download the ledger 15 there is this entry so Aust reg 83812.

email (option): rays54@hotmail.com

I've been puzzling over the "S Park" or "Sub Park" as its often written in red, it doesn't seem to appear with any machines which have "Boarded 33" or "Boarded 40" against them.

Any ideas what theses terms mean?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

8th Division "Ammunition Sub Park": from this website:

8th Australian Division

A monument commemorates the 8th Australian Division which served in World War Two.

The 8th Division of the Australian Army was formed to serve in World War II, as part of the Second Australian Imperial Force, who were in turn, part of the Allies of World War II. The 8th Division was raised from regular army units and new, all-volunteer infantry brigades, from July 1940 onwards. As war with Japan loomed in 1941, the division was divided into four separate forces, which were deployed in different parts of the Asia-Pacific region. All of these formations were destroyed as fighting forces by the end of February 1942. Most members of the division became prisoners of war, and a large number died in captivity.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thanks Jan

So its like a RAOC Depot, and it may have been where the machine was sent and stored prior to being disposed of.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Interesting what turns up
Regarding slightly newer machines.
The initial contract for B40GA's was 472 bikes.
These have been confirmed in the BSA despatch records as numbers 001 to 472 as 2 batches
However the army records go up to 562 so it looks like there was at least an additional 90 bikes ordered.
Very interesting.
Down side is no record who they were sold to just disposal dates.
So that blows my last chance for posterity.

Even worse I am now screen blind & my WM20 is still yet to surface.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Hi Ron
If you Google trademe nz under motorcycles there is an 1941 Indian currently for sale and if you look at the questions and answers there is some information that you may find interesting regarding nz Indians.
I prefer my WM20!!!
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

Thanks John. I can confirm the benefits of a 600cc upgrade. I love my 741B but much prefer to ride my WM20 (600cc also). Which is why I built an M20 special with a 741 engine.

The auction bike is currently at the equivalent of £12,000, so probably a bit to go yet. A link to the auction.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-1228318146.htm#qna

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi John , would you happen to know what the colors of my fathers MP bike in Japan 1946/47 would've been ? re the photo on the homepage today .

email (option): routedcycles@gmail.com

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Hi
Another listing on trademe NZ which may be of interest
A ?1938 Triumph project which could have a military history
Cheers
John

email (option): jsaft1951@xtra.co.nz

Interesting sorry in the NT News about the despatch rider. My WM20 is garaged not far from there in Darwin.

email (option): Dave_p_mitchell@hotmail.com

Hi David
Just read the story, interesting.
I once met a bloke who'd ridden BSAs as a convoy escort between Alice Springs & Darwin. Unfortunately conversations were brief so I never got any stories.

Henk, thanks for the info on my WM20 58162 matching numbers. Do you have the tank number on your spread sheet ?
Baz

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

Matching engine & frames numbers are generally found on bikes that were sold unused at the end of the war.
Mine wm20-78096 does not appear in the registrar .
I was told that the UK dumped a lot of surplus bikes into OZ in order to get some foreign currency.
We cerinally never ordered the hundreds of Corgies that were sold in Melbourne, & I doubt we ordered all of the LE vollos either.
After we pulled the troops back from Europe to defend OZ relationships between the Aust DOD & the UK wen very sour so we mostly bought Indians from the USA as the UK refused to allow their factories to supply OZ till after Hitler was defeated .
We have been exporting them back to the USA ever since .

And reading through this entire thread again , there was also A Victoria Barracks in Paddington Sydney.
In fact it is till there .
Don't really know what it is used for other than court marshals.
When I had the courier business, on of my customers had the contract for transcribing court marshals so I would turn up there every siting day at 3:05 precisely to pick up the tapes then in the morning drop off the transcriptions between 5:45 & 5:55 .
Big poo fight should I be more than a minute late .
They often held them over the Chrismass / new year period when a lot of the regulars were on leave so yes I did do the occasional run on the WM20 .

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Thanks Rob, that link didn't work. I'll see if I can get on the site and search for that page. Baz

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

Found that Rob. Interesting it was in Western Australia and still is. It was sold on to local dealer Mortlock Bros (Mortlock Suzuki)

email (option): binnawan@iinet.net.au

I am the 3rd owner
The second owner told me the first owner bought it brand new at a post war surplus auction and did all of the modifications ( 250 Empire Star chrome tank & wheels, deluxe chromed damper knob he had the fork links, foot brake & front engine plates all chromed as well .
I found the Sloper deluxe steering damper knob and made the long rack , otherwise the bike is as I got it .

IT is weird that such a low number would still be unused at the end of the war though .
I have come across a few with close numbers over the years that also have matching numbers.

If it had been bought in the 60's to 90's then I would have suspected it was a new machine, kept for back up as we did not retire all of the WM20's till 1974.
I did download all 25 of the ledgers and went through them several times just to be sure I had not missed it.
Not a total waste of time as I did find the 3 B40's I bought in the 82 & 84 and the landlords Indian.
The landlord found several vehicles his father / grandfather bought for use on their farm .