I have no real evidence to suggest this but I have a distinct feeling that the values of our machines has gone over the top of the curve and they are now lower that they may have been. It seems certain that the froth has certainly come off the very high end of the market for such things as Brough Superiors.

So, if I am correct is this now a long term trend or will it pick up again. It seems to me that with WD motorcycles the interest and values always increases towards each of the significant Normandy D Day anniversaries. Will values of WD vehicles continue to remain fairly stable because of the significant and growing interest in WW2 or should I now be selling all of my motorcycles? Are values in Europe continuing to climb and is this perhaps just a UK Brexit effect?

Your views appreciated.

JT

My views are that I currently have no intention of selling off any of my collection. I'll probably leave that problem for my son when I pop off! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

WD machines will go up & down as we come into "annaversary" numbers so they become fashionable.
SO I would expect a decline now till 2039-2045 when they will go gangbusters for the centenary clelbrations.

In general histroic British motorcycles are on a plateau leading into a decline for all riders bikes as the people who want to own & ride them diminsh.
Japanese classic bike prices are on the increase and this reflects a newer generation of retirees "reliving- buying back" their youth.
Time marches on for all.
Current youth live in their I-Phones so will more likley want to buy the WM20 simulator for Galixy 50 than buying a real motorcycle as they experience live through their phones.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

This year I've seen a few Military machines make much more than I expected so no I don't think prices are necessarily down.

First World War bikes and other veteran machines are still increasing in price so it can't really be due to people only wanting machines they remember from their youth.

But even if you view your collection as an investment asset and you decide to sell whilst its high, you would still have to find something else to spend the money on because you don't get much interest in the bank at the moment.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I don't know if prices are still climbing in Europe,
but I looked at some bike's a while ago and compared them with British prices.
Seems like the prices of the bike's in the Netherlands are lower then in the UK.
The price in euros is the same as the price in pounds in the UK. At this moment the pound is low, but when I looked the rate was about 1,20 euro to 1 pound,
so 20% more!

cheers,
Menno

ps I only compared a couple of bike's, Matchless and Royal enfield

Bear in mind there is often a big difference between the price asked and the price realised. I think WW2 bikes are holding value well as very practical things to own. I dont buy bikes as an investment.......thats just what I tell my wife! I am content that inclusive of selling bikes I no longer want to keep, it is still a very cheap hobby. Into the realms of expensive, rare bikes.......if you are worrying about a return on your "investment", what is the point?

Regardless of the fluctuating money markets, politics and even fashion I still think that the £35 I paid (my mum's money actual) for my M20 was worth it and it still goes as well if not better that when I got it aged 16 (I've stopped trying to "improve" it. Monetary values are relative so it would have taken me 5 complete weeks wages to pay my mum back, My income now would not buy a M20 at market prices over a similar period. Demand dictates prices and the generation that was close to conflict could relate to it, I missed it for which I've been eternally grateful but I grow up in a world where there were a lot of people who have experienced it first hand. Some were very willing to tell a youngster the details, other wouldn't say a work even when pressed.
The world has changed mostly for the better I hope (except if you live in Aleppo)and a load of old blokes riding around on older bikes is a small thing in it's estimation.
Enjoy it while you can!
Richard

email (option): richard177smith@btinternet.com

Prices in the classic bike market are very variable...For a start different bikes in different price ranges are selling in markets that have been affected differently by recession (ie in the amount of money available for such things)..

Some bikes fall squarely into the 'exotic'/'collectable'/'investment' market, whilst other less desired models/makes do not..Again quite different markets with a markedly different set of buying decisions and choices...

Regarding military bikes, they themselves represent a niche, and quite different, market within the classic scene...

There are also users and non users, all with different criteria and opinions of perceived value and worthiness...

For these and many other reasons it is therefore hard to identify trends across the whole market based on a short part of what is a long cycle of events..

There is no doubt IMO that the market is currently undergoing a period of 'readjustment' or 'resetting' of prices but the effects vary across the range of what's for sale..

I think this was inevitable as the market has been 'overheating' for a few years with huge increases in the perceived value of machines in some cases...

One thing that is certain is than no market for commodities (and that's what old bikes probably are to the majority these days.. ) can or will move ever upwards...

As has been noted previously in posts on the subject and has now been mentioned again by Trevor, there is probably a big generational change looming on the horizon that may well permanently alter the demand for and therefore the value of, British bikes over time...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

This is the third cycle i've seen since the 70's.

In 1979 i sold three 'E' types in various stages of renovation - since then i've tended to watch 'E' type prices, as a guide to the 'collectors' market.

Currently, with savings earning nothing in the bank and the stock-markets as volatile as they are, as usual people look at alternative 'investments' - with the added fuel that us 'babybooners' probably have more disposable income than many due to various 'stimuli' that the government has come up with (pension draw down etc.).

I know of three 50 year olds who have bought into bikes as an investment for the future, one of which is a modern bike breaker and two 60 year olds both of whom are looking for assets - the argument goes; Things will tend to keep up with inflation while pensions and saves will not .......

Are prices peaking out - hmmmmm, good question?

I suspect that 'quality' and pre-WW2 bikes will always be worth money - HRD's/Vincents/Indians/Belt-driver/etc.as much as anything because there are less of them.

Unusual/technically intresting bikes, like square fours, Bradburys, Douglas's, Velocettes and such like will also hold there price, but will be more difficult to sell, but will sell to an enthusiast.

Grey porridge - like 50's, 60's, 70's Triumphs, BSA, Royal Enfields, will always lose their value first and be difficult to shift - there lots of them, over priced at the moment and they are basically boring.

So where does it leave WD bikes - i suspect in the second group - the unusual and interesting.

As for myself, i buy what i fancy, if i like it, its stays, if not it gets sold at current market value .........
I just wish i'd been more of an investor an kept some of them, despite being terrible bikes to ride .....

I think for most people on this forum, it's not about an investment, it's the joy that comes from learning and restoring. The trick is to minimize one's losses. Dealing in, and restoring, vintage motorcycles must be a hard way to make a living. Sure, we all have those special bikes or rare bits we hope one day to sell at a profit, but overall this business is best viewed as a hobby.

If you really want to make a profit, pull all your bikes down to their component bits and sell these off through Ebay. That's where the money is at.

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

I agree with Cas that the majority, if not all, contributors here are driven by enthusiasm etc. and not primarily by money...

That is because this is pretty much a self selecting site built on enthusiasm..As such though, it is not at all representative of the wider world of old bikes...

I could argue at length over Nigels assessment of what is desirable and what isn't and what are the prospects for various parts of the market...But then we all have a view I'm sure..

It just serves to illustrate this is a hard market to second guess...

I had a spell a few years back where I found my decisions were beginning to be driven by what was best financially and that, I concluded eventually, was not actually why I have old bikes.

I have them because I like old bikes and in reality their value isn't of that much interest...

Unfortunately the 'value' view of the world was making me reject certain ideas/rebuilds/bikes I might have been interested in because the numbers didn't add up...

Fortunately I managed to clear my head of all that and now squander money on the things I am interested in with no real thought of the financial outcome...

It will work out for as long as I can afford it and is, in the end, how things should be IMO...Unqualified enthusiasm and interest in old bikes..

My bikes do have a value so one day I, or someone else, will recover that. On the whole though I'm happy to leave the investment market to the 'commodity dealers' in the old bike world....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes we can, and do argue all the time about what is 'collectable' and what is not, that's being human.
I've had a couple of Brough's and i think the OHV models are terrible, but the prices say otherwise.

I have close friends who have bought cars (and bikes) at the 'wrong' time, specifically an MGA and a Healey 3000.
Despite the period of time they have had them, neither have reached the purchase value since.
Were they an investment?
The MGA does get used, the Healey doesn't - it was bought as an investment .........

I am fortunate to be able to more or less buy what i want, but have an inbuilt adversion to paying more than what i think it is worth, ive missed many a bargain as a result.
I do have to keep a bit of an eye to the future value, if only to justify to ourselves the cost of the wheels/chroming/paint job......
I've just bought a C11 - something that i know will cost more to rebuild than its worth, but it was something i fancied...(had one as a kid)

Sure we ignore the hours spent in shed, we have to do!
i don't drink, smoke or gamble and strictly dancing is on TV - so boring fart i am, i disappear into the shed.
Hours better spent that watching TV.

I have long realized that i cannot second guess the stock-market or the value of stuff.
Happy in that fact, i buy what i fancy and keep what i like riding.
My racing days are coming to an end, so Old Bike runs/trials beckon in 2017 ...

- hopefully when i croak, wifey will be able to sell the bikes and give me a decent funeral and/or a good holiday.

There was an episode on Pawn stars in Las Vegas Nevada(not sure if you guys have that show in England?) and a guy brought in a nice WD m20. I think he wanted 5,000 dollars. The pawn owner only wanted to offer 2,500 dollars as that was the only way for him to make a profit! The owner didn't want to sell and I don't blame him. I remember yelling at the the TV saying I'll take it for the 5 as it was nicer looking than mine.

People see my m20 and comment all the time how that thing must be worth a fortune! Then they ask what I paid and was it running!. I say 5,000 dollars broken down then I rebuilt the engine and the transmission and changed all the bearings and tires. Then they ask whats it worth now and I say 5,000. dollars!

email (option): xeon25@hotmail.com

Nigel,

BSA made more WM20's than any other model except the Bantams.
I have a funny feeling that the same would apply to most WW II motorcycles so they could never be considered "rare" And as for interesting you would have to be kidding.
One WM20 is pretty much the same as any other WM20 save the paint job.
Now I have grown to love my M20 to the detriment of the rest of the stable which have fallen into disrepair but I would never call it interesting in any way shape or form.
Now every second WM20 owner will tell you a fabulios history of the "service life" of their mount , about 1% of which might have some resembelance to the reality.
Like the reincarnated who were all princes & kings in a previous life, every WM 20 seems to have had a glorious carer where in reality most of what are still around either never saw active service ( like mine ) or were a mechanical wreck stuck in the back of a government warehouse some where and forgotten about till the warehouse was emptied to make way for community housing and they fell into the hands of people with an interest in military motorcycles.
Those that survived intact were quickly civilianised in most cases with the exception of a very small bunch in the hands of military enthusiasts.

When I start hearing stories like this bike threw a rod, got sent back to RAME and toss in the back room for a few years till there was a desperate shortage when it got fitted with a replacement engine just before the gearbox fell to bits so again it was sent back to RAME when it was repaired and resaigned to a medical ordlery, then I will start believing the stories I hear about everyones "interesting" motorcycle.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

I have always thought that there has been a huge disconnect between truly interesting bikes and monetary value....perceived or actual. Interesting bikes are (IMHO) those representative of changes in social history and from that perspective, bikes such as Broughs and Vincents are really just irrelevant footnotes. On the other hand, the "grey porridge" motorcycles of the 50s and 60s were the means of making Everyman individually mobile for work and play. Most were well designed, reliable and enjoyable to own and ride, and properly looked after remain so. To true enthusiasts, money is only important for BUYING a bike! Buy what you LIKE, as they say in the antiques world.

Buy high, spend lots of money, then sell low. That, my friends, is our lot in life...

Now, tell me how much being part of a worldwide community of wonderful, like-minded people is worth? what would you pay to belong to this exclusive club?

Well, I now have to go to work, on my old WM Wheezer as I do every day. Its a slow ride because invariably someone will want to bend your ear about what you're riding. They will be amazed you ride that thing every day. Maybe I'll get that elusive last accessory I've been chasing - a speeding ticket!

email (option): cas.vanderwoude@gmail.com

FWIW Harry Beenham , a multi millionaire rode a surplus LE Velocette every dau to work from St Ives , where every second car was a Bentley to Chippendale.
His one concession was to fit it with a canvas oil skin lap rug.
Every day rain hail or shine, originally bare headed then finally wearing a WWII surplus helmet & goggles.
Riding atire was a pair of odd plastic "roman sandals".
When he died it took over a month to sell off his hoard.
It was the biggest auction of surplus WWII supplies since the 50's
I got sent there to bid on radio valves, some of which went for over $ 2000 each for a friend ( no he did not buy any ) but we digress.
However there were something like 20 or so LE velos and pallet loads of bicycles.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Seller: I have receipts for 5000 pounds and have spend 500 hours working on the bike at 25 pounds an hour. A bargain at R7500 pounds.
Buyer: I will have to employ a specialist for 100 hours to overhaul the bike at 50 pounds an hour and spend a further 5000 pounds on parts. I can only offer you R100 pounds to take it away.
The real truth is somewhere in between and depends on how badly you want one or wish to sell one. Just don't buy one as an investment unless, in the most unlikely event, you come across an absolute bargain that no one else has heard about. Also, don't buy one if you intend to employ someone else to maintain it. Certainly buy one if you wish to experience the joy of riding a classic motorcycle when you are not in a hurry.

email (option): pvlietstra at gmail.com

I noticed a WD M20 recently here in parts that didnt get any further than 2000 euro's.
Still a very nice winter project.