My M21 is in a B31 frame. I have a hankering to marry it up to a light Briggs sidecar and wanted to rebuld into an M21 frame.

However I'm wondering if I could attach the sidecar as is without too much risk of distorting a frame that was never designed for sidecar use.

I'm converting the sidecar to a braked hub which should help to keep things less stressy when braking and cornering if I can get my left footwork right.

I have no previous experience of riding a combo so would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Bernie

email (option): bernie.a.jones@gmail.com

I have never used a sidecar brake, I'm not sure there is any benefit with a light sidecar or a slow combination?

You can fit a sidecar to any motorcycle, they used to fit them on Vespa scooters and I have seem them attached to a C90 and a Bantam but not for very long.

With your "B" range frame the front top mount should be Ok with a clamp around the frame, front bottom and top rear again quite secure with a clevis bolted through a frame bolt, but the bottom rear is where the "B" range frame is weakest, you will need two clamps around both rear tubes and a heavy steel plate between them and even then you stand a fair chance of crushing or bending the rear frame.

Much better to find an "M" frame if you can.

But good luck with your project.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Thanks Rob,

The brake is for my own peace of mind - I may find I don't need it after a while but as a combination newbie I thought it would offer a bit more control under braking.

When you refer to bracing the rear frame tubes I'm guessing you mean across the frame in front of the wheel rather than top to bottom on the LHS?

I'm hoping to find a donor M21 frame but no luck so far.

Cheers,
Bernie

(Alternatively I suppose I could look for an old Panther or similar.... )

email (option): bernie.a.jones@gmail.com

This is an "M" frame but the principle is the same.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

As a teenage apprentice in the 60's I rode many sidecar outfits and never had a sidecar brake and sometimes no front brake either.... There is no need for a sidecar brake , although the sidecar does tend to pull on braking, you simply countersteer in the opposite direction. I could ride a combo using just a finger and thumb on the throttle. Cornering is the hardest thing to get used to, especially at any appreciable speed, lean in to turn left and out to turn right (on UK roads) also if you have a steering damper, screw it tight as this will stop any tank slapping as you learn to negate the sidecars pull....

Hope that helps.

P.S.

On a UK bike the sidecar will pull the bike to the left on acceleration and the right on braking.....

Gripping the bars slightly more firmly than you do riding a solo will prevent steering wobble...

Don't go into left handers (UK) without some power in reserve...The bikes wheels have to cover a greater distance on LH bends than the sidecar wheel (different radius of turn) so you need to be able to gently accelerate 'around the outside'.. That also stops the sidecar wheel coming up...

Right handers are more fun and less alarming at first...

Also read up some info. on correctly setting up an outfit...Set up is everything in terms of good handling...

Take it VERY easy at first while you get used to the characteristics of a sidecar outfit...As the layout is geometrically unbalanced they don't drive quite like anything else...Once you get the hang of it they are also great fun...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thanks all - I'm looking forward to the experience - I just need to find the right tug!

I'm about to start restoring a Sunbeam S8 so if I don't find an M21 frame - or decide not to risk the B31 - then that might be worth a go once it's run in.

Cheers,
Bernie

email (option): bernie.a.jones@gmail.com

I wouldn't recommend the S8 as a sidecar tug...The underslung worm and pinion in the rear hub aren't really up to the additional load...(one of the reasons they never really tuned them as well)..

If you're considering other bikes you won't go far wrong with an A10...Plunger or swinging arm, though plungers are generally cheaper...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thanks Ian, I had read that the final drive on the Sunbeam was not the most robust of designs so I'll bear that in mind.

I did briefly marry it up to my early A65 just to drive around the garden but as I rebuilt and tuned that to be a bit sporty it didn't seem to be a good match so I've 'set it free' again to run solo.

Any excuse to buy yet another bike as a sidecar puller is good though - I didn't mention before but the whole sidecar idea only came about after I finally gave in to repeated hints from the distaff side which resulted in us becoming first-time pooch owners. This has curtailed the early-evening bike rides that we used to enjoy several times a week and, as I seemed to have failed to train the beast to sit in a modified top-box, the sidecar has been acquired for the purpose. I do hope he appreciates the efforts that are being taken to ensure he gets a ride to the pub for a bowl of dog ale on a sunny evening

Cheers,
Bernie

email (option): bernie.a.jones@gmail.com

When I last had an outfit my Doberman and Bordie Collie really enjoyed the ride!..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Bit of a wild card but it was a military bike! You could try either of the ural or dnepr m72 they were used by the Russian military 1942 on and most were fitted with a side car had shaft drive and a take off to drive the braked side car wheel and they have reverse! And they are pretty cheap.i think they still make them but not in Russia.
Grahame

Of the two Rusky BMW copies, the Dnepr was made in Kiev, in the Ukraine, and that company is now defunct...

The Ural was (and is) still made in the Ural mountains considerably east of Moscow..The factory, along with a lot of other Russian industry, was moved there during WW2 to distance it from the invading Germans..

Both machines suffered from the poor manufacturing standards and lack of quality control typical of most Russian manufactured products..

I owned a Dnepr which when I bought it wasn't even fully run in but never the less it broke down with depressing regularity...

Most problems related to the two factors mentioned above...

I nicknamed it 'the Russian nightmare' and realised it was not a case of if it would break down but when...

Saying that, it was probably the best handling outfit I have owned and the reverse gear was something I came to think was essential for a properly specified outfit (though generally not available on all other machines)...

Ural received some additional finance from (I think) American investors and the latest machines have been quite extensively re engineered...
However, that is at the cost of a hugely increased purchase price that puts it on par with many other bikes...
Faced with that fact and my previous experiences, I wouldn't be inclined to chance my arm on the dubious prospect of increased reliability and durability, particularly when a quickly falling value from new comes with the deal... ..

Sidecar wheel drive examples aren't that common in the UK, though a few have sneaked in, as right hand fitment of a sidecar is (I believe) not legal in this country after a certain date...

Fitting a BMW engine is a fairly common mod, though you are then putting more power through the Russian transmission...Citroen 2CV motors are also used to get around the reliability issues...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

A couple of points;
When I was and apprentice mechanic I often passed a S7 Sunbeam outfit on Leabridge Road in East London, The pilot was what we then called an "old girl" dressed in woollen hat, gloves and shawl regardless of the weather, the chair was a double adult filled with dogs. She always waved as I went by on my M20 so someone thought it was OK to fit a chair to a S7/8.
As far the set up of an outfit, reading "Motorcycles and how to manage them" is a good start but if you have an outfit which doesn't steer straight with two fingers on the bars and is a struggle on corners something is wrong.
Sidecar wheel brakes are a matter of choice, I never had one and didn't miss it, others think they are great however I believe Colin Seeley never had one one his racing chairs and as he says you can always "scrub off" on lot of speed by going sideways.
The Russian and Ukrainian bikes are excellent plots for sidecars as they were designed for it rather than an after thought, hence their very good handling. Overall if you go for a Ural (I have no experience of the Dnieper apart from swimming in it) you will find it is a good reliable bike as long as it has been sorted properly. Most issues relate to electrics and carburettors due to poor maintenance and bodgery but bits are plentiful and cheap.
Regards
Richard

email (option): richard177smith@btinternet.com