Hi everyone,

At first I would like to say hi, as I am new to this forum.
My name is Bjorn and I live in Flanders,Belgium.

I have recently purchased a James ML, thinking it was a post-war motorcycle.
This, as the James had a post-war steering assembly and post-war tank cap fitted.

I wanted to know the framenumber and I only found ' ML' and approx. 2.5 inches above it '6416'. To be correct, it should be 'MLxxxx' or 'MLxxxxx'.
the 6416 seemed to have been stamped on a later date then the ML, also different size of stamps were used for the ML and the numbers.

Engine has been replaced by a pre-war engine, so nothing there to date the motorcycle with.

The only number I could find was '1 135' stamped underneath the seat, on the engine lug . It is tought that it might be a fabrication number for internal use in the factory.post-war James ML models don't seem to have this engine lug number anymore.

I have discussed this matter already on the hmv-forum and have assembled a list of these numbers and corresponding framenumbers;

Framenumber-engine lug number
ML27-38
ML515-558
ML648-884
ML1313-1670
ML1689-1807
ML1811-2301
ML3401-3520
ML7619-6138


If correct, then the frame of my motorcycle would fit between ML648 and ML1313 making it a wartime built frame.

-I would like to know some framenumbers-engine lug numbers of some other James ML motorcycles to add to my list.

- and what are your oppinions on the 'ML' and '6416' ?


reference topic on the hmv-forum:
http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?52414-James-ML-opinion-needed&p=473181#post473181

kind regards,
Bjorn

Hi Bjorn
I did a similar search when i found my ml, i too had hoped it was a wd machine. Though the handle bars were a bit of a giveaway! anyway i did find that there are a number of differences between the ml and the ml civilian, frame and fittings wise.
I know the the military machines had folding foot rests and the civilian fixed, you already mention the handle bars and the tank difference there is also the shorter mudguards for the wd. And i also found on another forum discussion (i have no idea where) that there is a frame mounting lug difference
The other thing is for 1946/47 James sold the wd machines as new repainted in burgundy/black, These machines retained all of the wd fittings.
My frame number is on the head stock on the left looking at from the front and along the bottom starting with ml xxxxx

more information here

https://oldthumpers.wordpress.com/2010/12/18/james-ml/

hope this helps
Grahame

There were less differences between the WD-ML and civvy version than the similar Royal Enfield WD/RE and it's civilian model.

The military frame is the same between WD and civvy although most WD versions (except very late) lack the two holes on the lower-rear saddle support tube to attach the centre stand retaining clip.......

Another difference is the centre stand which was improved on civvy versions to increase rigidity by fitting the lower cross-bar further down.....

The WD cylindrical toolbox and folding footrests were retained on early civvy production to use up existing stocks of parts...........

Early civvy versions retained the central handlebar tightening bolt but without the adjustment lever fitted to WD versions........late civvy production changed to a pair of rigid clamps for handlebar fixing.............

The decompressor assembly was also deleted on civvy versions with a steel plug inserted into the alloy cylinder head instead of the decompressor..............

Other differences were minor........interestingly, the ML continued to use a 18mm spark plug along with the Norton's...........

There is a new book out by Peter Miller on the James Military Lightweight and WD lightweights in general........very informative reading......

Ok,

The reason why I am a bit confused about the ML is the following:



handlebars = the late post-war setup with 2 supports on the front forks.
tank cap = post war.

front forks : painted black over light green primer (Original paint).

frame: folding footrest ,welded on lugs for tire pump, wartime centerstand , stamped 'ML' and '6416' above.seat lug number '1 135'could indiciate fabricated around end 43, early 44. This is not certain.

front mudguard : traces of what I believe tot be olive drab on light green primer. above it white filler and black paint*. Lenght is OK for a military ML.

rear mudguard : same as front mudguard. Even has holes where the contract plate would be fitted. 1 hole even has part of the copper rivet inside (cut off) to fit the plate. lenght is ok for a military ML.

engine = pre-war 9D AAA10259

seat,exhaust,saddle,front and rear light were not OK for a James.




* Previous owner mentioned a restoration early 90's. ( rather a mash up of parts to get it on the road again..)

Oh, and the engine has 2 bronze manifolds, and a bronze (military?) 3/1 jet carb fitted. I only miss the air filter.
Also has the immobilizer fitted, but handlebar lever for it seems post-war as it doesn't fit a wartime handlebar.

quite a mix up..

Hi Bjorn,

Welcome to this forum!

These mishmash rebuilds are not unusual for motorcycles that are more than 70 years old... But in my opinion, the lack of a frame number may indicate that this was a spare frame. Most military contracts comprised 10% extra frames and engines. In most cases these spare frames weren't numbered, the number of the frame that had to be replaced should have been stamped on the replacement frame. After the war the Army sold off all the obsolete parts. I have a strong feeling that your bike uses one of these frames... And an engine from an old bike, to replace the worn engine that originally came with the bike... Another case of the famous axe, all original, except the head and the handle...

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Thanks Jan,

That does sound like a credible explaination. I have never seen any of such spare parts, so I didn't know if they were stamped and/or how.


regards,
Bjorn

With few differences between the wartime ML (around 6000 made) and post-war production up to 1948 (30,000 ML's) it is not too difficult to make a WD ML from a collection of parts............

I cannot recommend better than Terry Roberts at Metal Magic (Heritage Motor Works) at Eversley, Hampshire...............he manufactures most accurate parts for the military ML............I see Terry every week and have known him for over 25 years and he is very reliable.............phone them on 0118 9 731630 (UK) and they will be happy to help......they can modify parts or supply new..............the also do the Villiers Air-Maze air cleaners too.......perfect replicas of an unobtainable item today...

Hi Steve,

I've already had some parts made by Terry. He makes some quality stuff.
I didn't know he makes the air filter for the villiers engine.
Will make a second order soon, so I will ask for those for sure.

kind regards,
Bjorn

Misquoted Terry's works number......it is 0118 9 731631 !!!!! 8.30am to 5.30pm Monday to Friday.......lunch is between 1pm and 2pm........