I have never been good at working these out and would be grateful if someone would give me the frame number for the Matchless with frame number 4278. Thanks JT

Hi John,

I think the answer is 4278...?

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Oops! Meant to say C number. JT

I think I get what you are asking John. The census number against the frame number?

A Machless G3 from the same contract as mine C5247, which is complicated because it's not a straight run of numbers. Fortunately for me, Steve M had worked out my number.

Firstly though the total contract was for 4000 bikes but the census numbers total 4003?
I calculate yours to be the 3434th bike and therefore from the 4th batch of numbers which I make to be C67024 as the census number. But someone else should check my calculations before you use it Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

This could be another case where the postwar keycards have some clues, has Lex found any machines from this contract in them that can help?

The list in Steve and Chris book doesn't give a satisfactory answer if you work from the front it looks like this with 3 missing frame numbers which are very unlikely to be at the end.

Frame
845 C63586
2810 C65551

2811 C65553
2827 C65569

2828 C65571
2840 C65583

2841 C65586
4840 C67585

4841 C78041

4842 C78058

4843 C78061

4844 C78065

---- C78068

---- C78069

---- C78078

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I notice that these are all 1940 RASC numbers. I have researched the 1940 RASC Royal Enfield WD/C numbers and have come to the conclusion that there is no relation at all between the frame numbers and the census numbers for the early RASC motorcycles. As these census numbers weren't applied at the factory (yet), I'm pretty sure that this will also be the case for the RASC Matchless motorcycles from the same period.

So, a more or less "random" number from this block would be "correct"!

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

I think I see the problem here

Contract C5247 is mixed with contract C6049

C5257 has more census numbers than frame numbers
C6049 has more frame numbers than census numbers

Both used parts of the census blocks
C63586-C67585
C78038-C80037
C80764-C80766

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Hi all, sadly not done much on the Matchless key Cards, hope to do so in the coming winter. (or I could visit Jan, and we'd spend an afternoon making a start on it?

Just looking through the cards right now, and searching for 4 digit framenumbers, all sofar have rebuilt C numbers, all starting with 14, and no wonder really, as the bikes were from 1940, and would have been rebuilt first!

One with another C number is frame: 7386 and has C4996426 is that anything to go on?

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbiXX.net (think about this!)

Do the early RASC G3/WOs also have, as per early RASC WD/Cs and 3SWs, the census serial number stamped on the crankcase next to the engine number ?

This seems pretty consistent on the REs and Triumphs and doesn't appear on RAOC machines. I suspect that it was done in order to make some sense of a situation where census number couldn't be otherwise deduced (because they were issued first come - first served rather than in consecutive order).

Are there any surviving early contract G3/WO engines that could give clues ?

Jan has been able to pin the WD/Cs down to quite a narrow range with relatively few survivors - but numbers can only be predicted in a broad band, not confirmed.

Never seen a C number on a Matchless engine yet! and I've seen some in my lifetime. Lex

email (option): welbike@welbiXX.net (think about this)

Thanks for all the information. Jan, you mentioned that these are all RASC numbers. How do you know this? I bought another early G3WO recently with frame number 1839 with the C number C64570 stamped on the crankcases. This bike came back from Germany recently and I assume it was a survivor of Dunkirk and therefore likely to have its original engine which is stamped 40/G3 4932. But I have not checked the data to see if the frame and engine numbers are from the same contract. One of you also mentioned that the C numbers were not put on at the factory but I had thought they were or did this only happen later in the war? Cheers JT

Hi Lex & John,

I have been studying the "Chilwell list" for many hours, and I have found the "key" to their system. These 60000 numbers are definitely 1939-1940 RASC.

It was only later during the war that the factories started to apply the census numbers on the bikes. This can clearly be seen by the different "styles" that each factory used for these census numbers. During the early war years the numbers were applied by the military, which resulted in a more uniform "style"...

After Dunkirk this "census number on the engine" was no longer done. So we should be looking at pre Dunkirk G3/WO engines really... I know that the (pre Dunkirk) AJS, Triumph and Royal Enfield RASC engines all had their census number stamped on the crankcases. This was done in a specific "style": the C prefix is clearly larger than the numbers that follow (e.g. C 68081). Same "style" on AJS, Triumph and Enfield engines! So it's nice to see that JT has now found a G3/WO engine to prove this theory!

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

OK, thanks Jan!

Got another one emailed to me from Bram, but what is this high C number then?



Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbiXX.net (think about this!)

Hi Lex,

This must also be an RASC number, from the period when RAOC and RASC still shared the same system:

The Chilwell records started in 1933, with Census number 33 000. At that time, there was no difference between the RASC (Royal Army Service Corps) and the RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps) numbers.

There were less than 999 numbers allotted in 1933. Logically, in 1934, the sequence started with 34 000. But in ’34, the Army needed more vehicles, and after 34 999 came of course 34 1 000! Same story in 1935 and 1936, but in 1937, there was a block from 37 000 until 37 999, then 37 1 000 until 37 9 999, and then came the 37 10 000 until 37 99 999 block…

Around October 1939, it became clear that this situation was getting extremely complicated: the census numbers were allotted in small blocks (to make sure that the prefix (e.g. 39) corresponded with the build year?). But with so many contracts that were being ordered by now, this system was no longer feasible, it was becoming far too complex…

Instead, a split system for RASC and RAOC vehicles was chosen. This new system no longer had a “year-prefix”. To make it clear to everybody that this was a NEW system, numbers starting with “40” were NOT used!

• The RASC sequence started with the number 1. But very soon the number (almost) reached 33000, and this sequence had already been used, back in 1933. So they jumped over all the 33 000, 34 000, 35 000 etc. blocks, and continued their sequence at 46 001 for motorcycle contracts, and at 150 001 for trucks etc. In no time the motorcycle census numbers were going to reach the 150 000 limit, and the 4 wheeled vehicles were soon reaching the 33 0 000 limit (also 1933 numbers!). So they made a new jump, over all the 33 0 000, 34 0 000, 35 0 000 etc. blocks, and continued their sequence at 500 001.


• The RAOC started its own sequence with number 4 100 001.

In the mean time, the Canadians wanted their own blocks. Numbers 4 200 000 until 4 299 999 were reserved for the RCAOC (Canadian RAOC) motorcycles, and 74 000 until 75 249 for the RCASC (Canadian RASC) motorcycles. There were also other blocks for RCASC four wheeled vehicles.

So it happened that during BSA contract C/6654, RAOC census number 4 199 999 was followed by number 4 300 000…

Somewhere around Dec ’41 / Jan ’42 (according to my Royal Enfield data), the RASC number 1 000 000 was in sight.

From then on, the RASC had to think about another system. Some blocks that had already been used previously were approaching rapidly: two other blocks of Canadian RCASC motorcycle numbers had already been allotted: 1 037 601 until 1 038 300, and 1 039 802 until 1 041 036, and the numbers higher than 1 130 000 had been reserved for (RASC) cars, 1 200 000 upwards are (RASC) ambulances, and there were also blocks for trailers and other oddities… (also some smaller Canadian blocks for RCASC trucks, cars, …) And there was a (RAOC ? RASC ?) block from 1 400 000 onwards that was reserved for reconditioned motorcycles. There were similar blocks for reconditioned (RAOC ? RASC ?) cars
(1 500 000), trucks and lorries (1 600 000 and 1 700 000). But there were no numbers higher than 1 800 000 in this series.

So in early 1942, by which time the RAOC numbers must have reached the 4 600 000 cape, the RASC system was replaced by / integrated in the existing RAOC sequence. The combined RASC - RAOC sequence continued until shortly after the war, by when it had reached 6 277 376.

Summarised:
- 33 000 → 33 999 : 1933 combined RASC + RAOC
- 34 000 → 34 999 : 1934 combined RASC + RAOC
- 34 1 000 → 34 9 999 : 1934 combined RASC + RAOC
- 35 000 → 35 999 : 1935 combined RASC + RAOC
- 35 1 000 → 35 9 999 : 1935 combined RASC + RAOC
- 36 000 → 35 999 : 1936 combined RASC + RAOC
- 36 1 000 → 36 9 999 : 1936 combined RASC + RAOC
- 37 000 → 37 999 : 1937 combined RASC + RAOC
- 37 1 000 → 37 9 999 : 1937 combined RASC + RAOC
- 37 10 000 → 37 99 999 : 1937 combined RASC + RAOC
- 38 000 → 38 999 : 1938 combined RASC + RAOC
- 38 1 000 → 38 9 999 : 1938 combined RASC + RAOC
- 38 10 000 → 38 99 999 : 1938 combined RASC + RAOC
- 39 000 → 39 999 : 1939 combined RASC + RAOC
- 39 1 000 → 39 9 999 : 1939 combined RASC + RAOC
- 39 10 000 → 39 99 999 : 1939 combined RASC + RAOC
- 1 → 32 999 : late 1939 RASC
- 46 001 → 149 999 : 1940 RASC (motorcycles)
- 150 001 → 329 999 : 1940 RASC (non-motorcycles)
- 500 001 → 999 999 : 1940 – ’41 – early ‘42 RASC (all vehicles)
- 4 100 001 → 4 199 999 : late 1939 – early 1940 RAOC
- 4 200 001 → 4 299 999 : Canadian forces RAOC
- 4 300 001 → 4 6XX XXX : comes after 4 199 999 RAOC
- 4 6XX XXX → 6 277 376 : 1942 onwards RASC plus RAOC
- Plus some small blocks for impressed vehicles, rebuilt vehicles, …

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Great info Jan!!! now I can place the 49XXXXX numbers in the Keycards!

Thanks,

Lex

ps, what do you think of making a start on the matchless Key cards? I'n not good enough to do it myself!

email (option): welbike@welbiXX.net (think about this!)

Jan, great info. So my Matchless engine stamped C 64570 is and RASC bike from 1940. Very interesting. Many thanks JT

I am utterly impressed! Andy

email (option): a.tizzard@btopenworld.com

John

You said that this bike was found in Germany. Well, I'm 99,9% sure that this is an ex BEF motorcycle, probably used by the Wehrmacht after the Dunkirk retreat, and now back home in England after more than 76 years!

I'm currently rebuilding a Royal Enfield WD/C with census number C68074 stamped on the crankcases, and another WD/C (with census number C68153 stamped on the crankcases) was recently brought back to Blighty and is currently also being rebuilt by its new owner. Both bikes were found in France, in the area where the BEF was stationed during the phoney war.

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi Jan,

That looks great! Must be a loth of workshop I am very impressed .

Can you tell me more of my bikes?

1e. C65192. Frame nr. 2431 and engine nummer 5531

2e C ??? Frame nr. 10892 and engine nummer 12895

And I have a seperatet engine nr 9956

Thanks,

Bram

Hi Bram,

I'm not a Matchless specialist... but your first bike with census number C65192 is a pre-Dunkirk motorcycle. Where did you find this one? Do you know anything about its history? Any chance of a few pictures? (A picture of that census number would also be interesting!)
The other ones are later, sorry, can't help you with these I'm afraid...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Many thanks to all of those that have answered my questions. I have learnt several things that I did not know before. Much appreciated. John

Jan, I have been looking at your very comprehensive email again and I was wondering what the highest C number is that you have found on a bike that was left behind at Dunkirk? That highest Matchless number I have found is on a bike at Southampton about to board a ship as part of the Second BEF, which is 66458. This will help with dating bikes as we will know they were definitely made before June 1940.

Lex, the C number on the crankcases from Bram are for the previous contract C4608 and I would be very interested to know from Bram what the frame number is of this bike. My other G3WO which was bought from a dealer in Dunkirk has frame number 719 and is from this contract. This is the earliers frame number I have ever managed to find. Unfortunately the engine number was removed and it was stamped with a French number so that it could be registered in France.

Cheers,

JT

email (option): Tinley@btinternet.com

Hello John,

I will look that frame number for you, leth you know
Asap as I have it.

Can you tell me some more abouth my bikes?

And the census number of the second one?

Regards

Bram

Hi John,

The framenumber is 11274 so its not matching.

Regards

Bram

Hi John,

As you may know, I'm the registrar for the Royal Enfield WD models. As such, I have a lot of information on the Enfields, but not as much on the other makes...

When I look at the surviving motorcycles or engines in the WD/C Register, I can see that census numbers 67614 and 67767 (which are the earliest WD/Cs in my Register) both survived in the UK. Then I have census numbers 68081, 68071, 68074, 68118 and 68153 that were found in France. No doubt these are all ex BEF motorcycles. Later entries in my Register no longer had a census number stamped on the engine, so that's why I assume that this system stopped after the Dunkirk retreat.

These census numbers were allotted in batches, so we can't compare Royal Enfield census numbers with Matchless census numbers and come to conclusions about the build dates. On the other hand, if you have a picture that shows that 66458 was sent to France, we can say that at least 2865 G3/WO engines from contract C/5247 must have been stamped with a census number on the crankcases, and were built before June 1940...

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi Jan, John and Lex,

Is there a record so whe can see were the pre BEF bikes went to ( units ) mine is earlier then the bikes in the doks.
I am very interested were it was sent to.

regards,

Bram

Bram,

If I have understood Jan correctly your first bike with frame 2431 was delivered to Feltham which was a RASC depot but I would not be able to tell where it went from then. Your other bike with frame 10892 would have been delivered to Feltham or Ashchurch and therefore would been delivered to either the RASC or the RAOC who were based at Ashchurch. If they were used after the war then it is possible these bikes will be on Lex's key cards and is so he may be able to give you some more information.

My calculation of the C number for the bike with frame 10892 would have been C 936483 but no doubt someone will pop up and tell me I'm wrong.

Cheers, John

email (option): Tinley@btinternet.com

Unfortunately not Bram... Unless you find your bike's logbook, but the chances to win the lottery are much higher than finding your bikes logbook... Another highly unlikely option would be finding a war time picture that shows your bike (the census number is the "ID number"). Or you could search for original markings if the bike hasn't been sandblasted yet. These may give you a hint where the bike has served. But there are no records anywhere that show where a motorcycle has served...

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Hi John,

That's a 6 digit number, it should be a 5 digit number...

Anyway, I have started to put the Matchless key cards in an excel spreadsheet. Lex will do the donkey work and add all the other cards, and then it's up to me again. I can then easily see from which contract onwards there was a mathematical relation between the frame number and the census number. I can already tell you that with Royal Enfield this was only the case from March 1942 onwards. The census number of a WD/C (these were all build before March 1942) can not be calculated... I guess it will be exactly the same story for the Matchlesses.

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

As far as I can tell, Ashchurch was an RASC depot and only became RAOC later on. Certainly the RAOC details for contract C7183 state 'RASC. ME' (Middle East). This doesn't mean that they all got there though.

Prior to 1939, the RASC who were responsible for all second-line vehicles were the largest user of MT. These vehicles were not exclusively for their own use but also non-fighting corps units. The 1942 revisions which brought about REME saw an end to this system.

Most RASC motorcycles were probably used by them for convoy work and general transport. Any that found their way to Infantry or Armoured Divisions would have been with the RASC support services.

Jan, on this occasion I think you may be wrong about the C number on Bram's bike not being a 6 figure number. I am not saying that I have calculated the correct number but if you refer to this contract in O&M you will see that part of the contract had 6 figure C numbers. Cheers, John

email (option): Tinley@btinternet.com

Oops, you're absolutely right John!

But I'm still convinced that the census number can't be calculated for the early RASC motorcycles...

Cheers,
Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com