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Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Ok, I'm not brave enough to start redesigning oil pumps. Taking them apart and lapping them in is as much as I do. If they're too far gone it's time for a new pump I know the gears are deeper on one side than the other and swapping the drive would affect the difference between feed and scavenge. The other difference between a single pump and a twin is the outlet is on the top of the body on a single and a twin is on the bottom so you'd have to drill another hole to fit a single. You're a brave man Nig

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Going slightly off topic but still on the subject of oil pumps, the Ariel WNG can be 'upgraded' by the fitment of a Triumph oil pump...

The oil holes in the crankcase need to be slightly chamfered on one side to align with the holes in the replacement pump, but it's an easy fit...

The larger diameter pump plungers of the Triumph pump boost oil flow considerably....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Horror
Ok, I'm not brave enough to start redesigning oil pumps. Taking them apart and lapping them in is as much as I do. If they're too far gone it's time for a new pump I know the gears are deeper on one side than the other and swapping the drive would affect the difference between feed and scavenge. The other difference between a single pump and a twin is the outlet is on the top of the body on a single and a twin is on the bottom so you'd have to drill another hole to fit a single. You're a brave man Nig


There's even more to it than that the drive is on the other side of the pump!!

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Keith H
Horror

There's even more to it than that the drive is on the other side of the pump!!


Yes, we've said that Keith, I've posted pictures of both pumps, but Nig is saying he swaps the top plate to make the drive on the other side.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

It has now been 2 weeks since installation and as far as I can tell, not an ounce of oil has disappeared from the tank. I'll be a couple weeks still before startup, but as far as wet sumping, in my opinion, (and I'd loose half a tank in 2 weeks) it's a success. Running the engine will be the next test, but I don't anticipate any trouble, famous last words!

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

You'll have to put some oil in the tank first though, Sam...

To be honest, I'm not surprised as this is exactly what I found when replacing with a new-generation Andover pump on my Commando. Prior to that (and I'd replaced quite a few pumps - every time the cam or followers went...), it never made much difference before.

I have memories of levering out an outlet nipple on one of the old pumps, I think because a Nourish pump didn't have one. Have you spoken to Andover about hat aspect ? I'm sure that it's something that Joe Seifert would like to know about and it's an easy fix for them.

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Rik, I may be one of those rowdy petrol tank riding Canadian trouble makers, but I did fill up the tank!

I have to admit I was fully expecting it to hold the oil for 2 weeks, the true test will be over an extended period of time, but that doesn't concern me as much, my goal was to get a few weeks time and be able to jump onto the bike and go without draining the sump or starting an engine full of oil.

I have reported it to Andover, and other than scratching their heads, they didn't mention anything more about it. Perhaps I should write them again and attach a photo of nipples side by side. As you say, an easy fix for them, and they could advertise them more correctly for the 16H.

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

H

no pix but better end my 'contribution' -

Seems the two (+one now damaged) CI bodied pumps i have ARE ES2 and not twin.

All of these bodies are symmetrical - in that they can be rotated end for end to make them 'upside down' - i.e move the pressure outlet from bottom to top.

The two covers - one a plain plate, the other a casting incorporating the drive shaft again can be swapped around - yes they may not look correct, but they seal and can be trimmed to allow the pump to fit against crankcase.

The un-driven pressure/scavenge gears - stay in place.

The problem comes with the drive-shaft - on mine, they have an integral pressure (thin) gear which allows the body to be in the correct position for the ES2 - on a dommi/commando/twin this would be a wider scavenge gear to allow the body to line up for the twins.
I presume all the pumps have this integral gear at different positions according to application?

I seem to have two different 'output' pumps - two with a narrow pressure and scavenge gears and one with wider gears.

The 'narrow' gear shaft, etc is the same as the MAZAC original 1930's 16H/ES2 - and the MAZAK gears fit very nicely into the CI body - giving a CI body oil pump, which will be fitted to my ES2 - eventually.

So - although the twin-pump appears (very?) different to the single-pump, they are very closely related and it appears that an pump from early twin with a CI body can be converted into a CI bodied single pump by swapping the bodies, as long as the gear width is similar.

As for the original start of the tread - the diameter of the machined flat on the pump body - why does it matter?

Or was the problem that the single pump has a smaller diameter pressure outlet stub than the twin - in which case why not simply find a fiber/Dowty/'o' ring of the bigger size

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

I think that I may have 'cracked' this one.

To answer Nig's final point, the problem here is that the backing disc to the push-in spigot is too large a diameter to enter the counterbore in the timing cover. This means in all probability that the timing cover will be held away from the crankcase face unless the OD is turned down.

On the 1936-pattern engine, the backing disc has to be small enough to enter the counterbore.

This photo shows a WD16H timing cover and oil pumps from (L-R)Mk3 850 Commando, 750 Commando and WD16H. The Commando outlet is sealed by a conical rubber - large OD on the Mk3 and smaller on the earlier model. The rubber seals are shown alongside the stub.

 photo Oil Pumps_zpsudrsif7d.jpg

The backing disc on the early models is the same size as the WD16H. I suspect that what Andover have done is to make all their twin pumps suitable for the Mk3 - If the large Mk3 rubber is placed on the small plate, it is not supported and does not seal. The Mk3 needs a larger seal as it has to close a larger opening containing an anti-drain valve.

On the Commando it is not a problem as the rubber is about 1/8" thick and the timing cover sits well clear of the oil pump stub - the rubber should compress appreciably as the cover is pushed home so they can all use the larger disc.

Unfortunately, Andover appear to have carried this stub over on to the single cylinder pumps without appreciating that on the pre-1938 pattern engines at least, the stub has to be able to enter the counterbore in the timing cover.

The NOC are visiting Andover at the beginning of July. If needs be, I'll happily take the relevant components along.

You may need to click on the photo in order to see all three pumps (which form only a small part of my knackered oil pump collection !)

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

There is an iron twin pump listed as a singles pump on eBay at the moment.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-oil-pump-ES2-16H-M19-M30-M50-77-88-99-/182127763088?hash=item2a67a91e90:g:NWAAAOSw3mpXM4gz

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

One month of sitting there and not a bit of oil has gone down to the engine, the pump is a complete success in my eyes, at least as far as wet sumping is involved.

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Sam the true test now will be after you've done a good few miles to ware the pump in.

New York to Norton Sound and back.....GO! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Yes Ron, it's true, it hasn't been run in yet, but I still think it should prevent wet sumping for quite some time. Fortunately, I don't plan any endurance runs like the one you suggest!

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

SAM - norton were so convinced how good the o/pump would be at stopping w/sumping - on pre-war models they used an ON/OFF tap on the oil tank .........

Ok until u forget, but the increased rattles soon remind you!

Re: Norton 16H new oil pump installation

Finally got the bike running and out for a spin. After a bit of carb adjusting, she ran like a clock. As for the pump, two things I have noticed are that the return rate is much higher than with the original pump, I am attributing this to the larger outlet hole in the pump, I am guessing it is furnishing much more oil than the originals, the oil return with the old pump was a babble and spit whereas with this one it is a steady solid stream. The other thing I have noticed which didn't happen before is that upon cranking the engine, the tell tale comes up and stays up for a bit, gradually returning as oil dissipates through the crank. Previously, the tell tale would go straight down, probably loosing it's pressure through the pump. I have not noticed any wet sumping in a couple months, altogether the pump is in my opinion a VERY good investment which cures the 16H's Achilles Heel, "wet sumping", this coupled with the fact that I know there is a high oil pressure make me a happy camper as I open the throttle!

This afternoon's ride.

 photo 010_1.jpg

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