Since I seem to be the guinea pig of the 16H community in regards to the new oil pumps offered by RGM Norton, I figured I would post my experience and findings. I bought the pump several months ago and have just now installed it. The pump arrives packaged in a plastic bag, sealed and full of oil. A note accompanies it saying the pump is tested and approved, it warns not to remove any oil, install it as is with whatever oil they ship it in. They also tell you not to dismantle it. I don't know why one would dismantle it, but anyways. The pump does not come with the drive gear or the woodruff key, however as I have found, my used ones fit on there like a glove. It does come with a new lock nut however. One thing for sure, looking at it and handling it, you certainly get the feel of a high quality item, this is NOT Indian junk.
So as far installation goes, as mentioned the drive gear is a perfect fit and the lock nut snugs everything up very tight. The pump slides onto the studs perfectly with no problems.
One problem arises however, as I quickly noticed, the round "washer/nipple" (for lack of a better word) on which the red fiber washer fits and which seals itself onto the timing panel is way too large. A measure of originals I have are 1/2" in diameter, the one that comes with the pump is 3/4" in diameter. So it does not fit in the round recess in the timing panel which is just over 1/2". So it just doesn't work. A quick fix I figured would be to take an old one off a pump and replace it. So I removed the washer (it's pressed in there, some careful leverage with a screwdriver all the way round gets it off easily) and attempted to replace it with an original, but found that the new pump has a slightly bigger hole than the original, so that was a no go. I wrote RGM and asked them about it, they said the problem was never reported to them before. ????? So I must really be the first??? Anyhow, I told them I could easily get it turned to the correct diameter and they said that would be the best way to go, they immediately sent me another disc and a fiber washer in case I buggered up the other one. I got the disc turned to 1/2" at the machine shop, pushed it back in, got the washer on it and voila. I was surprised they knew nothing about it at RGM, I am guessing the 3/4" disc might fit on the Easy 2?? The oil outlet hole itself is larger than on the original pumps also, I would imagine the thing will feed more oil than the older pumps, that leaves to be seen.
So that is the only problem which arose, really not big deal, just a bit of a head scratcher.
It is now installed and ready to go, I have not started the bike yet as it is still stored, BUT it has held the oil level in the tank at exactly the same level for 1 week now, no oil has drained into the engine at all. Just one week, but still very promising, I will update the wet sumping situation in another week. Previously, I would loose half the tank in 2 weeks.
RGM disc on left, original on the right
Pump installed minus the disc
Disc turned to correct diameter prior to installing the fiber washer (yes I cleaned up the brown crud before I installed it!)
I guess the 16H was the sports version..
...
Interesting stuff about the pump, I'll be interested to hear how it performs when you run it..(hopefully you won't have to go near it!)...
Out of interest did your engine have original factory valve timing marks?...I've had three or four Norton engines apart and have yet to find any...
Also, can you recall what valve guide to stem clearances you used when you rebuilt the engine?...and did you get that information from a Norton or other publication or by recommendation?
Finally, do you have a spec./grade for the grease you use to lubricate the guides and how frequently do you apply it?..
I ask all these questions as this was the subject of some detailed posts previously and no one seemed to be able to come up with either Norton information or definitive answers...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
['Sorry, I didn't see the other post you asked these questions. I will have to go through the books again and post to confirm..']
Hi Horror..It was a long running discussion quite some while back when Rik had all the trouble with his valves/guides...
I made a 'best guess' based on previous experience and other engines when I repaired Riks barrel...At the time it appeared that there was no information published in Norton manuals ref. valve to stem clearance...
I found that to be pretty amazing considering that it is basic information when overhauling an engine...but then I also found it hard to believe Nortons don't have valve timing marks...
After all, why make life difficult when it can be easy?....
I have copies of the BSA and Matchless REME 'standards' books...Hopefully one day the Norton book (and others) may appear to solve these problems...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Ian, no I have never seen timing marks on any of the cams I have had. Some had painted on marks, which is what I did to mine. It's baffling why they wouldn't have marked them at the factory. Only thing that ever came to my mind is that the gear wheels and the cams are separate entities, perhaps they elected to press the cams into the wheels in any position rather than having to press them in at a precise position dictated by timing marks? Who knows, I'm sure there is sense to nonsense somewhere.
Valve stem to guide clearance? I guess I don't follow. Do you mean the clearance between the valve stem and the bore of the guide? Sort of like piston to cylinder clearance? If so I have no clue. The guides were drifted in, valves cut true on their seats, but I don't believe any honing was done to the guides. Everything was NOS. Please let me know if I didn't understand your question.
As for grease, I have always used lithium grease with no problems, in what concerns intervals, I don't really keep track, I have a grease gun next to the bike and give them a squirt before a ride. Probably more than necessary, but it doesn't hurt anything as far as I know and it sure makes me feel better!
Hi Sam.. Yes, it was the valve stem to valve guide bore clearance I was referring to...I guess it must be 'top secret' information..
What a strange company Norton were...
My father visited the Norton factory in the mid 50s and said it was the most antiquated factory he had ever been in!...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
The Norton singles I have, all have the drive on the left of the pump, and on the twins it's on the right.
Twin oil pump
Single oil pump
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Well, that's interesting Horror, the pump for the twin has the large 3/4" disc, like the one that came with the pump I purchased from Andover. They must have figured they were all the same without checking!
Scavenger and feed gears are reversed also, the outlet port is on the bottom for the twin.
Going slightly off topic but still on the subject of oil pumps, the Ariel WNG can be 'upgraded' by the fitment of a Triumph oil pump...
The oil holes in the crankcase need to be slightly chamfered on one side to align with the holes in the replacement pump, but it's an easy fit...
The larger diameter pump plungers of the Triumph pump boost oil flow considerably....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Hi Samuel, the pumps changes several times with different metal and with increased output etc here a picture of a Norton twin oil pump with the smaller disc.
The later twin pumps for sale say "fit all twins" and has the bigger disc, this may cause a problem on some earlier models like you've found. I haven't got a featherbed type ES2 engine, but I'm suspecting the larger disc may be for the last singles?
Hi Nig, sorry I'm not understanding how you converted a Dommie pump with the drive on the right to fit on a single? Do you have any pictures?
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Ok, I'm not brave enough to start redesigning oil pumps. Taking them apart and lapping them in is as much as I do. If they're too far gone it's time for a new pump I know the gears are deeper on one side than the other and swapping the drive would affect the difference between feed and scavenge. The other difference between a single pump and a twin is the outlet is on the top of the body on a single and a twin is on the bottom so you'd have to drill another hole to fit a single. You're a brave man Nig
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
I know the gears are deeper on one side than the other and swapping the drive would affect the difference between feed and scavenge. The other difference between a single pump and a twin is the outlet is on the top of the body on a single and a twin is on the bottom so you'd have to drill another hole to fit a single. You're a brave man Nig There's even more to it than that the drive is on the other side of the pump!!
There's even more to it than that the drive is on the other side of the pump!!
Yes, we've said that Keith, I've posted pictures of both pumps, but Nig is saying he swaps the top plate to make the drive on the other side.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
It has now been 2 weeks since installation and as far as I can tell, not an ounce of oil has disappeared from the tank. I'll be a couple weeks still before startup, but as far as wet sumping, in my opinion, (and I'd loose half a tank in 2 weeks) it's a success. Running the engine will be the next test, but I don't anticipate any trouble, famous last words!
Rik, I may be one of those rowdy petrol tank riding Canadian trouble makers, but I did fill up the tank!
I have to admit I was fully expecting it to hold the oil for 2 weeks, the true test will be over an extended period of time, but that doesn't concern me as much, my goal was to get a few weeks time and be able to jump onto the bike and go without draining the sump or starting an engine full of oil.
I have reported it to Andover, and other than scratching their heads, they didn't mention anything more about it. Perhaps I should write them again and attach a photo of nipples side by side. As you say, an easy fix for them, and they could advertise them more correctly for the 16H.
I think that I may have 'cracked' this one.
To answer Nig's final point, the problem here is that the backing disc to the push-in spigot is too large a diameter to enter the counterbore in the timing cover. This means in all probability that the timing cover will be held away from the crankcase face unless the OD is turned down.
On the 1936-pattern engine, the backing disc has to be small enough to enter the counterbore.
This photo shows a WD16H timing cover and oil pumps from (L-R)Mk3 850 Commando, 750 Commando and WD16H. The Commando outlet is sealed by a conical rubber - large OD on the Mk3 and smaller on the earlier model. The rubber seals are shown alongside the stub.
The backing disc on the early models is the same size as the WD16H. I suspect that what Andover have done is to make all their twin pumps suitable for the Mk3 - If the large Mk3 rubber is placed on the small plate, it is not supported and does not seal. The Mk3 needs a larger seal as it has to close a larger opening containing an anti-drain valve.
On the Commando it is not a problem as the rubber is about 1/8" thick and the timing cover sits well clear of the oil pump stub - the rubber should compress appreciably as the cover is pushed home so they can all use the larger disc.
Unfortunately, Andover appear to have carried this stub over on to the single cylinder pumps without appreciating that on the pre-1938 pattern engines at least, the stub has to be able to enter the counterbore in the timing cover.
The NOC are visiting Andover at the beginning of July. If needs be, I'll happily take the relevant components along.
You may need to click on the photo in order to see all three pumps (which form only a small part of my knackered oil pump collection !)
There is an iron twin pump listed as a singles pump on eBay at the moment.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-oil-pump-ES2-16H-M19-M30-M50-77-88-99-/182127763088?hash=item2a67a91e90:g:NWAAAOSw3mpXM4gz
Sam the true test now will be after you've done a good few miles to ware the pump in.
New York to Norton Sound and back.....GO! Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Finally got the bike running and out for a spin. After a bit of carb adjusting, she ran like a clock. As for the pump, two things I have noticed are that the return rate is much higher than with the original pump, I am attributing this to the larger outlet hole in the pump, I am guessing it is furnishing much more oil than the originals, the oil return with the old pump was a babble and spit whereas with this one it is a steady solid stream. The other thing I have noticed which didn't happen before is that upon cranking the engine, the tell tale comes up and stays up for a bit, gradually returning as oil dissipates through the crank. Previously, the tell tale would go straight down, probably loosing it's pressure through the pump. I have not noticed any wet sumping in a couple months, altogether the pump is in my opinion a VERY good investment which cures the 16H's Achilles Heel, "wet sumping", this coupled with the fact that I know there is a high oil pressure make me a happy camper as I open the throttle!
This afternoon's ride.
