Hi all,

I expect this has been covered before but I can't find any info ?

I have just fitted my 2nd Pattern Tail/convoy lamp to my 1945 M20.👍🏻

As it was an original fixture and fitting "back I'm the day" ...... Will I be breaking the law riding around on UK roads ?

Will I need to fit my brake pedal relay switch to it with a dual filament bulb ?

Kind regards,

Mark

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

Hi Mark

The law is quite vague on some aspects of old vehicles, often two Policemen will give you completely different opinions on the same law, so it can be a matter of luck as to what sort of day they are having when you meet them.

The tiny 1/4" fag end light isn't that visible so I use the much larger 3/4" version with a brake light for safety's sake.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Well I was reluctant to answer the query for the reason Rob mentioned, and the same thing could apply to black out masks and original helmets. There's probably a large journal with all the rules and regs regarding laws for historical vehicles and Grandfather rights etc. But I'm a rebel and do it the way I want.....Based on the theory that If I don't ask "Can I" they can't say "No you can't."

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

You can have an MOT without a rear light...My friend with a Triton has just done so ....

If a light is there is has to work but I wouldn't think that necessarily includes the brake light if the light never had one (what's there must work as the regs say)...

There are construction and use regulations to consider as well though, even if you are MOT exempt...

I am pretty sure the fag end light would fail to pass muster with a fastidious copper...There isn't enough surface area and it would be pretty invisible on a foggy day for example....

I rode back from Weymouth to Devon on a misty day and felt sure I'd be picked up if I was spotted with my small rear light and black out mask...and I felt pretty vulnerable myself...The law does say that in conditions of poor visibility the vehicle should be lit...In those circumstances poor visibility is regarded in the same way as darkness...

The addition of a reflector on the rear mudguard might give you grounds to 'argue the toss' on the basis of surface area at least...

The problem is that if it were deemed by the old bill you didn't meet the regulations you might not be allowed to continue on your way...

It is indeed (literally) a grey area and could stand some clarification...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Surely the over riding consideration should be your own safety. It's no good when you get hit up the back and are laying in the road, thinking, I'm in the right with the small light. At the very least carry a clip on LED cycle light. If you are not worried about your on safety think of the damage you will inflict on the poor car drivers car. ( this is a joke)

I must admit. I do carry one of those LED cycle lamps to clip on if I get caught in poor visibility. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

What is the law and what might be deemed sensible are two different subjects.. ...and if you choose never to take a risk life could be pretty dull...

When it comes to motorcycles, the dayglo, body armour, ABS, traction control, state of the art helmet route isn't the way I want to go, however bloody sensible it might be...

I might stretch to additional clip on light though...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

As far as i understand things - if it has lights, it needs a brake light!
However - if early enough (cannot remember dates) you do not necessarily need a dipping headlight or a speedo.

i do like to be seen when riding and judge all motor car drivers as idiots (i do have a car - and a HGV license ...) - not helped by my occasional attempts to get fit by cycling ...

Judging by my playing's with LED'd and push-bike lights, a single 10mm or even a 5mm high power red LED should produce an irritatingly bright enough light to prevent the most myopic motorist from driving into you.

The fact that the flashing/strobing lights used by cyclists, in an attempt not to end up as road-kill, are illegal is VERY WRONG.

As i say, I like to be seen - and my 3HW fitted with a wrong headlight (from my cuz's Ariel) will have a 'pulsing' LED riding light in the pilot light position.
And the rear 12mm light will have hi intensity LED's + brake light.

Not authentic, just self preservation.

Darwin's law rules .....

I am pretty sure that the law states that if you fit lights, they must work, irrespective of whether you have an MoT and this state of affairs also affects your insurance cover, be warned! On that basis, a fag end light with no brake light as well as masked headlight are illegal. That is what I take as my jumping off point and I therefore make a conscious decision to stick with a masked headlight, use a Lucas repro rear light with working brake light, carry clip-on battery LED lights and try not to ride in the dark (a decision made easier by having a G3L with a dynamo up to usual Matchless state of repair ). So not strictly legal, but safe.........ish. I think if you are taking your bike on long runs, alone, in fast traffic, then you do need to think twice and a few folk have ancillary lighting gear they can hook up for such occasions. A few years ago, just down the road from here, a bloke in a Jeep was flattened after being rear-ended by a truck on the M20. Sobering.

Judging by recent news reports the answer to careless car drivers is forward and rear facing lasers... ...

Sad to say I'd like a pound for every time a dayglo Derek with his lights on has been knocked off his bike...The fact is you are taking a risk just going out on the road....

Risk paranoia is the route to driving a 4x4 instead of a bike...I've always done it the way I want to do it, have kept my wits about me on the road and accepted the resultant risk....and so far so good..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Before 1936 you don't need a brake light even if you have lights whether they be oil, carbide or battery, also you don't need a speedo, after 1936 you need a speedo (not for MOT) to please Mr Plod

After 1936 you have to have a brake light if fitted with lights, if you have no lights then you don't need a brake light but must have a reflector. It is my belief that all vehicles of any age must have reflectors.

Only my interpretation of the complex laws

There was something retrospective in the early 1950s. Many immediate post-war bikes had MT110 rear lamps and these never had a brake light facility. Many of them were junked when the law changed.

Retrospective legislation is almost unheard of under UK law but this was one of the rare examples. When it was introduced, all bikes back to 1936 had to have them.

It is possible to fit an LED bulb such as Henk sells into the WD tail light and it will be very bright. However, you will still need a separate reflector.

The best method to include a brake light with the LED is to incorporate a resistor in the wiring and this will allow the retention of just the single cable to the rear lamp.

Thanks all for your intersting posts and answers !

Much appreciated

Kind regards

Mark

email (option): towersmark84@yahoo.co.uk

The reflector thing is very interesting ..

last spring, while waiting the statutory - god knows how long - for a 'day time' mot on my 1986 KDX200 i sat and read the relevant part of my pet MOT'ers guide.
(i would call it the green book as it appears to have changed from the older 'blue book' which i have).

According to this 'word' a reflector was no longer required, i have seen this in print .. logical really if you think its for 'day time' use only.

However as he cast his eye over my '32 Norton - and spotted the mangled reflector fitted - he reckoned that i didn't need a reflector on that either.
So i had a look in same 'green book' - found the pre 1936, speed/light (and exhaust ....!) requirements but could find no reference to rear reflectors.

I do know that a few years ago they were a requirement.
And that over the last year or two there have been significant changes to requirements ... anyone have any up to date FACT on this issue ?



I am currently MOT'ing late '60's and 70's bikes - when they started to fit indicators etc. - now that is a very awkward period for current regs.

When out on the road on my G3L I have a seperate plate on a sheet of alloy, in the corner is one of those small round and legal Wipac lamps, it's held onto the pannier bag rack with two wing nuts, the whole easily detached at shows so the rivet counters can concentrate on the rest of the bike.

No stop light so no strictly 100% legal, but then again nor is the blackout mask.

My defence for the lack of a stop lamp would be that the bloody can't stop anyway, not on those brakes

With reference to the reflector, every year my MOTer sold me a little stick on one for a pound and every year it fell off before the next MOT, until my last MOT which was over a year ago when he said I didn't need one anymore.

But there may be the difference between MOT requirements and Road Legal requirements?

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

I'm of the same school of thought as Ken, just put a large light on and take them off at at a show, but with stop tail bulb or leds , the last time I was hit up the back, was whilst stationary waiting at a level crossing in broad daylight, the guy was on a mobile phone , and hit our two bikes standing side by side, No amount of lights will stop that, got hit up the back in my solid merc car just after Christmas whilst waiting at an accident , with my hazard lights on , again the guy was on a mobile phone did three thousand pounds of damage to my car and even more to his AMG merc, sorry just my rant about people using hand held mobile phones, andrew

email (option): warbikes at Geemale dot comm, think about this

Rob - you be right about MOT requirements and Vehicle Regs - ive always looked at Vehicle regs for new builds, kit-cars, etc.

I guess a good example being Speedo and number-plates neither are mot'able for a bike (though the latter is subject to MOT on a car - i.e. cracked n/plates).

And thanks for confirming my experience with reflectors.

Don't get me started with mobiles - i had my car rammed while parkd as a women was parking her 4X4 - when i wanted to 'talk' to her, she told me to f**k-off as she was on the phone .....
Luckily i reported it to a copper who seemed to take it very personally and chased the case to court!