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Re: Oil valve warning

My 16H dumped the oil over the bench in a few days. I lapped in the oil pump so the sides of the gears were tight but it seems the tolerances around the gears isn't enough to stop it. A valve was the only real option as I would forget to turning a tap on and off. I always check the oil pressure indicator and it's all the way up on start up. Goes to about half way when hot.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

Sam Cormier has ordered a new pump from Andover Norton in an attempt to improve his situation. It will be interesting to know the outcome. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: Oil valve warning

Does the Norton have an anti drain valve in the engine as standard as the M20 does?..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

No Ian, nothing as advanced as that on a Norton

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

Commando mk 3 models had a anti drain valve in the side cover, didnt they ?

Re: Oil valve warning

Indeed, Norton denied that there was a problem with leaking through the gear pump first fitted in 1932, right up until late 1974 when they introduced a 'cure' with the 850 Mk3 !

The Mk3 anti-drain valve is visible as a small bulge in the timing cover and they did actually have the right idea as it is a lightly sprung plunger which seats on the nose of the oil pump outlet so it is pushed off its seat by the oil pressure.

However, despite a small bleed hole behind, it has a tendency to stick open, especially when the oil is cold...and the counter-bore is just deep enough to take a further plunger on top which then has no space to open. I've spoken with several Commando owners who have 'replaced' the 'missing' plunger and that causes seizures too.

Re: Oil valve warning

Ron Pier
Sam Cormier has ordered a new pump from Andover Norton in an attempt to improve his situation. It will be interesting to know the outcome. Ron


Well, first report is, I have received the pump a few days ago, but haven't installed it yet, not in motorcycle mood as of yet, it's below 0' F outside! But anyhow, the pump comes in a sealed plastic bag, soaked in oil. A piece of paper says the pump is pressure tested by them and to NOT clean the oil out of the pump, install as is right out of the bag with the oil (whatever it is) dripping off and out of it. First impression, well I've been around machinery long enough to be able to tell it's a VERY high quality item with high machining standards, They are not junk. As for wet sumping situation improvement, well I'll let you guys know as soon as I get the ambition to install it. Oh and one more thing, it does not come with the red fiber washer where do I find those????

Re: Oil valve warning

They would have had them, and the gasket. I think I used a rubber washer on one bike.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

When I was a teenager I used a tyre of a Dinky toy car. Ran it for ages like that, I think it was still in when I sold!

Re: Oil valve warning

I use a modern Viton O ring for that, much better then the fiber ring! I did notice that no fiber rings can be bought in the US, so always brought a good supply when working on bikes there.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbXXX.net

Re: Oil valve warning

Painful Ron !!!!

A piston pump, as in a triumph - has a chance of sealing the oil tank off, from the sump - IF it stops in the right place, otherwise oil can flow through it.

A gear-pump can never seal off the tank - you can lap to your hearts content and fit all the seals you want on the drive shaft - but oil will flow between the gear teeth.
The teeth do not touch each other or in any other way seal !

The only positive way is with a valve in the supply line - my ES2 has this, and yes i have forgotten to switch it on - BUT IT DOES HAVE A FLOW INDICATOR and i usually check this as i drive of. So far i have gotten away with various senior moments ....... but then again you can, with a roller big-end.

As for a plain big-end (Triumph, B25, etc) ... a different matter. I race a B25 and these are famous for having marginal oil-feed, i do worry.
My solution for 2016 is an oil pressure switch and an idiot light (PP3 battery and a very bright LED) - i think if i had an inline oil valve on a similar big-end bike - i would fit this idiot light, whether it was 'period' or not!

Re: Oil valve warning

['The only positive way is with a valve in the supply line']...

Yes, but a sprung loaded valve is also a valve..and in that case there is a crucial difference between one situated upstream of the pump and one situated downstream of the pump despite the fact they are both in the supply line to the engine...

The pump will produce far more oil pressure than vacuum....

If it is accepted the oil will inevitably drain through a gear pump, then there will be air downstream of a valve placed on the input side to the pump but there will be oil upstream of a valve placed on the output side of the pump...and it is an oil pump, not a vacuum pump... Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

I can't help thinking there must be some way of using a solenoid valve (eg electric fuel tap) to ensure the oil supply would be open only when the engine is running? Unless I'm missing something obvious?

Gary.

email (option): gj.owen@hotmail.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

It can be done with coil ignition but not with a magneto as the low-tension system has no bearing on the sparks department.

You could link one to the battery but the only safe way would be an NO (Normally open) valve which would flatten the battery (thus opening the tap !)when standing.

All in all a lot of aggro to solve a problem that shouldn't be too great with a pump and engine in decent condition.

As Ian mentioned, the only correct way to do this is a pressure-operated valve on the 'P' side of the pump (and as close to it as possible)...but this would mean some re-engineering.

Putting a suction valve above a gravity-fed oil pump just doesn't make sense to me from any sort of practical or theoretical viewpoint.

Re: Oil valve warning

No, the gear pump will not stop oil from seeping through, Andover Norton even states this, it's not a cure. However a brand new pump will not seep as fast as an old one will.

Re: Oil valve warning

Yes.
There has to be some running clearence between the gears & the sidewalls or the gears could not turn.
However the pump does not leak from the oil pump, it leaks through the oil pump.'
So the oil needs to go through the oil ways and drip out.
So the more worn the engine, the faster it will wet sump.
Using multigrade oils also increases the speed of wet sumping as it will have the viscosity of the base oi wen cold.
As such 5W50 will pour out as will 10W50, 20W50 is a bit slower but not much.
I use 40W70 which wet sumps a bit faaster than strait 50 but that is now almost impossible to get down here now days.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: Oil valve warning

Yes straight 40 or 50 grade is some sort of solution, but here's something to think about;

Gear pumps are poor at sucking oil, therefore once you start the engine with thick oil in it, the gear pump will effectively cavitate unless there is a sufficient head of oil to keep it filled .........

We get away with it, because our old engines only need a splash of oil every now and then, to lub a roller big end (actually, according to bearing manufactures it would be much happier with an oil mist - like a two stroke).

Now a plain (shell) bearing big-end needs oil, all the time - hence the recommendation for much thinner oils.
I was given 25litres of modern synthetic m/cycle oil - something thats ruined several of my road racing engines in the past.
However, i am using it with success in the B25. This stuff is like water and boy, does it leak out of the b25 !!!
Luckily, the bike is usually covered in mud so this tends to bake on and seal things .......

Re: Oil valve warning

['Gear pumps are poor at sucking oil, therefore once you start the engine with thick oil in it, the gear pump will effectively cavitate unless there is a sufficient head of oil to keep it filled .........']

The experimental Gold Star engines that were built using white metal big ends to enable them to rev more, used the same oil pump as the conventional engine..

However, the quill in the end fed crank was replaced with a spigot and oil seal...This was to increase pressure more than volume as it was a higher oil pressure required for the white metal big end in that case, not more volume than the existing pump produced..

Oil grades for all bikes were changed between winter and summer to reflect the overall changes in operating temperatures but most British twins (with white metal big ends) ran the same oils as the roller bearing singles...

Usually SAE40 in the summer and SAE30 in the winter...Hot running engines such as the Ariel Square Four ran 50 in the summer...

So these engines with white metal big ends and oil pumps of the same basic design as the singles ran reliably on the same grades of oils...

That doesn't indicate the presence of cavitation, volume or pressure problems resulting from the specification of relatively heavy monograde oils.....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

The big problem with heavy oil was the time it took to get to the top end and the load it puts on the oil pump.
When i was running the SR for work, I lost about 20 kph from the top end when running the heavy 30W50 and 40W70 oil in summer.
The Desmo Ducattis had an oil flow problem at start up being that they will blast strait up to max revs before the oi has got to the big ends.
The sprung heads did not suffer from this low oil wear to any where near the amount of the Desmos.

I seriously doubt that the standard British Motorcycle oil pump would be powerfull enough to cavitate engine oil and if it was, the thin zinc cases would have blown through, Suck air, yes, whip up and air/oil foam , certainly but cavitate not a hope in haddes.

email (option): bsansw1@tpg.com.au

Re: Oil valve warning

IAN - yes, use a similar oil pump up to 1970 in both roller brg. & shell bearing engines .......... and paid for it!!!
All i can say is B25 ................

Eventually in 1971/2 they actually did something about it by fitting a different capacity pump (also in CI instead of monkey metal).

Sorry but in the mid 1980's the company i worked for used hydraulic drive for machines used in hazardous area's - cavitation due to low oil temperatures was a MAJOR problem - rectified by using oil tank heaters. Gear-pumps need to have a substantial head of oil, at high speed even with thin enough oil if they have insufficient head - they cavitate.
Gear pumps don't suck - they are actually displacement pumps (look them up, lots of bollox on interweb) and as such don't suck.

yes i know all about summer/winter oil change - pre-war oils suffered from major viscosity differences with temperature - once again WW2 push development in oils (as fuels) - again mainly for aircraft use.

What i and saying is that roller-bearing oils - get away with marginal lubrication and plain bearings don't.

The piston pump used in an Ariel/Triumph will suck - it is a positive displacement pump.
Norton when they used the same/similar pump as the 16H/ES2 on their twins fitted a two-start drive gear to double up the flow-rate (as well as oil sealing etc.) - when i built my s/stroke 500 es2 with plain big-end bearing, i used the same two start drive gear as otherwise i could not maintain sufficient pressure.

Re: Oil valve warning

Gear pumps must suck a bit or these valves wouldn't work at all. The oil pressure indicator on my 16H is fully out on start up and I'm using a synthetic 20/60w oil. If it didn't suck a bit I would have no pressure. A gear pump won't work if it isn't primed and there isn't oil in the pipe, it will not get enough "suction" trying to pump air. Velo's have this valve in the oil tank and that is as far away from the pump as possible but it still "sucks" enough to open it. I think the problem is some of these valves are too strong for the small amount of suction that is produced by gear pumps, it only needs to be as strong as putting your finger over the pipe and not stronger than that.
The valve I use I can suck it open with my mouth so it takes very little to open it. I also check it's working if the bikes been stood. Nig might be right about the suitability for shell bearing engines, but I've never had a problem with Norton twins and wet sumping, yes they still wet sump but it's not a problem. Just start it and ride it.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-C15-B25-UNIVERSAL-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-IN-STAINLESS-/401042570847?hash=item5d5ffffe5f#ht_717wt_1323

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

['I think the problem is some of these valves are too strong for the small amount of suction that is produced']

That is the whole crux of my argument against these valves...

That is, that a one size fits all spring pressure cannot be correct unless it is determined by the performance of the weakest pump under the least favourable operating conditions...

As various pumps have different capabilities when new and all pumps have been subjected to varying degrees of wear and they operate under varying conditions, how is that universally suitable spring pressure to be determined exactly...?

Whilst a randomely selected spring may suit some, or even most oil pumps in most operating conditions, there is a real statistical chance it will not operate correctly in some instances and therefore it HAS to be regarded as a risk when fitting one...

Engine failures which have been caused by such valves have definitely occurred so the evidence for non suitable spring pressures is undeniably there...

My concern is not about a spring loaded valve in principle, though there is absolutely no doubt one placed downstream of the oil pump is a far better arrangement and less likely to fail...

Rather it is the principle propagated by the sellers that one valve will suit ANY engine....It clearly will not...

Various SAE ratings for oils, discussions about pump design, operating temperatures, pump priming etc. are all 'red herrings' that only serve to confuse the issue in this case because the valves have been proven, despite the advice of the seller(s), to be of an UNSUITABLE DESIGN and ineffective in some applications and/or conditions under which they are supposed to operate.....

The best solution for an in line valve placed on the supply side the oil pump is a plain on/off valve....The only problem here is not one of the systems capabilities or the basic valves design but one of the human memory...

So the best thing would be to come up with a solution for connecting such a valve, a}To the ignition system to earth it or b} with a practical mechanical method of ensuring its operation is not forgotten...

If for example, when the bike is going to be left standing long enough for the oil to wet sump, close the valve and connect a bungee strap to the closed valve and the kick start lever...

Perhaps laughable at first sight but you couldn't start a bike without noticing it and all you need is a reminder...

No doubt a more elegant solution to the problem could be arrived at with some thought...

I would think the owner of the bike that is the subject of this post would be quite happy to consider that type of solution rather than what he had previously THAT FAILED TO WORK!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

It is relatively simple to make up a bit of electronics that sense's a spark by simply wrapping a wire round the HT lead.

Whether this operates a warning light or valve is a question.

A N/C (normally closed) solenoid on the oil-line (feed) would not draw any power until the above switches on and one could assume the generator would then provide the juice to keep it open - until it stopped sparking.

All relatively simple and do-able (first thought use a simple 555 to sense and switch) the electronics would be cheap and could operate off a dry cell battery. The 6/12V solenoid would be the relatively expensive bit, would also be a bit bulky i suspect.

But is it all worth it ?
A re-cycled ali. curry tray or something like seems a better idea - and simply live with the wet-sumping or simply drive the bike more ?

Re: Oil valve warning

I think the valve I use, that I posted a link too, is a good one or I wouldn't use it, we are all jumping to assumptions when we don't have any facts about this Norton twin or what the owner has done. I would like to know more, what valve did he use, did he check that the oil returned after fitting, what oil was he using etc.
A tap can be fitted but I don't like the idea, I have one on my Manx and I use one of those bright coloured curly wires for disc locks, as a reminder, but I'm still worried about forgetting. The Manx feed is too big to fit one of these valves.
On a Lucas K2F mag, the earth can be fitted to the oil tap so the lever grounds it when switched off, so the bike won't start, and a similar setup for coil ignition. But on mag dynos there is no earth cut out so I don't know a way.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

I have seen and been involved with two trashed engines that resulted from the use of these valves...One, coincidentally a 'no expense spared' and very expensive rebuild of a Commando carried out by a good friend...

Regarding a magdyno, the high tension lead can be earthed...It's just a case of working out the connection (contact) at the valve end...

The beauty of a manual valve is that it is just about impossible for it not to function when the lever is turned...It is just a matter of introducing a method of overcoming memory lapses...

Any automatic system can fail to operate and in high risk industrial environments for example 'fail safe' is the only permissible option when designing systems...
In the case of a solenoid operated valve as suggested by Nigel it would have to be structured so that in the event of failure the valve remained open, not closed..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

Bummer! :-( I've just fitted one of those valves to my WM20 as she was just puking oil everywhere! :-/
The valve seems to have worked though, and, I watched the system working withthe engine running - oil was returning into the oil tank, which to my understanding means that it's doing it's thing properly.
Don't go scaring me folks! I've had my fair share of problems with my bike and the problems just keep on coming, I dont need any more :-/

email (option): fozzie001@hotmail.com

Re: Oil valve warning

Ian,
The stainless type of valve you have fitted to your M20 will work fine if you have fitted it at the engine union. I have used one of these for years on my 16H and i do use the bike regular long and short journeys. I would not fit one to a bike that had a higher speed pump that requires a large volume of oil to be circulated to keep the white metal bearings from rubbing. The valve must put some sort of restriction in the line even when it is open that is why it may fail in a engine that requires a large volume of oil. But our M20s and 16Hs don't, and they have steel bearings.
It's all personal choice and it has worked very well for me. If you are worried about it take it out and it cannot be to hard to drain your sump after a long lay up. As i said in a previous post as long as its taking 3 to 4 weeks to drop half a pint i don't think there is much wrong with it. Remember in the past these bikes were used even day and had no time to sump. I will be leaving my valve where it is.

Tim W

email (option): t.j.walker@btinternat.com

Re: Oil valve warning

Exactly Ian !

I would have thought regular oil changes and perhaps use a hi detergent diesel engine oil would stop any valve sticking .... ?

Perhaps RON's experiance was something other than the valve itself malfunctioning, there could have been something that caused bits to float around the system, which caused the valve to lock up ?

I must admit i keep to the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and beleieve firmly in the 1st law of Engineering (if something can go wrong - it will, usually at the worst possible time - i.e. the YORK flood barrier!!!)

Re: Oil valve warning

Yes, there is no doubt the valves may work fine in some applications...

For various reasons I have concluded I don't like them and wouldn't fit one but I don't claim to be the final arbiter on anything...I just take my part in the discussions...

'Pro' and 'con' opinions must be weighed up by the individual and if your conclusion is that they are a good thing, go for it and don't worry....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Oil valve warning

I thought i'd shut up on this topic until .......

I'm fiddling with my 'new' b25 MX engine, and ..i forgot its fitted as standard with an 'anti wet-sumping' ball-valve/spring system.

So are all the c5/b40/b25/b44/50 variants ..... if BSA thought they could be reliable then no reason a retro fitted one - with the correct spring tension - shouldn't be, with clean oil etc.

That above being said, wet-sumping on B50's is certainly not unknown - but at least they 'fail' OPEN rather than closed (in fact when i think about it, i'm not certain how they could fail closed????)

Re: Oil valve warning

correction - there's actually TWO - one on the suction side and one on the output side.

The latter i suspect is to hold oil in he crank for cold starting, before pressure builds for the big-end

Re: Oil valve warning

Where are they fitted Nig..? I've got my B25 engine in bits but I haven't noticed a ball and spring. Cheers

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

Ah, thanks for saying about it, that saves me putting a valve in line, I've just had a look at Rupert Ratio's book and found it. I wouldn't have thought of looking up the scavenge pipe for a ball and spring. I guess it keeps the pump primed. The trick now is to make sure it works.

 photo BSA B25 Oil lubrication system_zpsrmrpq9jq.jpg

My new present to my B25 is the high delivery oil pump from SRM which I hope cures any oil pressure problem they inherited.

 photo BSA unit singles high delivery oil pump_zpsbfaug9ol.jpg

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: Oil valve warning

HORROR - my nice CI 1972 oil pump has now started to wet-sump - a bit.

The smug answer is to keep the oil clean, but i have (very) regularly changed the oil and ......

Anyway, it due to be stripped later this month once i hear back from the DVLA - so perhaps i will find something holding a valve open somewhere?

FYI - best piston to bore out a B25 seems to be a STD Yamaha XT250 piston - 75mm, this allows a spigot thickness of 2.5mm.
Just enough - assuming you don't want to bore out the crankcases ....
Also leaves the oil drain holes clear of the liner, so you don't need external drain lines (like a CCM).
Gives a 10:1 compression - MAX, though.
You do have to make 'top-hat' sleeves to reduce the piston wrist-pin holes from 20mm down to 5/8".

An alternative is a std MORGO 75.5mm piston (about £78 new) which has a 5/8" wrist pin as standard, but the compression height is lower - which probably nicely compensates for the crown 'hump'.
It does leave the spigot thickness a bit marginal ?

Re: Oil valve warning

Thanks for the reassurances guys :-)

Now, just to iron out all the other problems... Ho hum...

email (option): fozzie001@hotmail.com

Re: Oil valve warning

Grandpa's solution to the wet sumping was adding the oil tap to the engine feed line. It's been on the bike so long now it's just part of the starting routine.

I did something similar to Ian's suggestion with the bungie cord though, with attaching something obvious to the oil tap - as you can see if this pic.. :D

email (option): matthew.j.croucher@gmail.com

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