Over on the Historic Military Vehicle Forum, folk are beginning to air their problems with the new fee system for those entering an MV.........specifically for people who are IMPS members. Up to now, this got free MV entry, no strings, as something of a nod towards the objection of paying to provide a show attraction and with rhe show originally being an IMPS creation. Even IMPS members now have to pay a "facility fee" of £25 for each MV and each MV has to be driven by an IMPS driver (not sure where this leaves me as I bring my military Land Rover which tows my Matchless and I am sole driver of both!). On top of that there seems to be a surcharge of £10 for toilets! It is hardly surprising that this is going down like a lead balloon with the IMPS clan and it looks like those on this site who did not show MVs at W&P due to their objection over having to pay will be joined by many who used to regularly attend. Hopefully someone is monitoring these concerns as it would be a shame to put a dent on the only truly international HMV event in UK. I understand queries have been emailed to the organisers but no reply as yet.

I guess as it no longer has a real connection to IMPS they are not deemed to warrant special treatment any more...

Who gets charged for what at various shows is a long running debate...

I suppose as the larger shows are actually commercial enterprises designed to make money you just have to decide which is the more important, your desire to attend or your views on how things should be run...

At the end of the day it's a cheap event...Check out the ticket prices for Glastonbury for example...

Any organiser would be chancing their arm if they stood the whole expense of the show up front and that rarely happens with commercially based events...Ian

It's £228 plus a £5 booking fee for Glastonbury by the way...Ian

Ian, I don't feel that your comparison is completely accurate. Bearing in mind that the vehicles are the show, it's as if the acts would have to pay to appear on stage at Glastonbury. Michael Eavis is a scheming old git but I don't believe that even he has tried that one yet....

Not sure that shows like Glastonbury have any bearing upon, or similarity to W&P........except the mud! Not that I agree, but those who object to paying to exhibit at W&P would say that this is akin to demanding that the bands pay to play at Glastonbury! No, the problem seems to be in the first instance about lack of clarity on the charges being levied and of course that IMPS folk are now required to pay.........rather too much, in some people's view. There is also irritation about several things like a toilet levy, and having to submit a photo of each MV being entered (just why?) and a couple of emphatic objections over (it is said) being asked to accept conditions of entry that are apparently not available! Certainly I am going to postpone applying in the hopes that this stuff gets sorted out!

I use Glastonbury merely to illustrate that the £35 charge for W&P is relatively cheap these days for a weekend away.. If you like the event it's probably worth paying.....

You could well ignore the fact that you are taking an MV and regard that as incidental within the bigger picture...

Again, I'm not quite sure why IMPS feel they should have preferential treatment as a group...They gave up running the show for whatever reason and it is now both run by someone else and at a different venue as well...

As for entry details etc. they will probably get sorted out...It's still early days and John Allison is new to organising a show of this scale.

He's unlikely to get everything right at the first attempt but it is also equally obvious that a new organiser will probably make some changes...

From my own experience of being part of running a British Motorcycle Show for 13 years and also organising the 65 for 65 event I know things don't always go to plan...

Personally I think it is a good thing that someone is prepared to take it on and have a go at it...It's that or no show...What would people prefer?...

I guess if the IMPS felt that strongly about it they should have pulled their fingers out and taken the show on again...Ian

To be fair to IMPS, they have indeed actually gone and organised their own MV show, in Kent in August......."Combined Ops" that has grown hugely year on year from a modest start some 5 years ago. No charges involved and the show makes a profit, but of course, it is a big step up from that to something on the scale of War & Peace. But several people are commenting that maybe they will drop W&p attendance and support the local shows, which have proliferated and are successful. All of these are free to enter and priceeds from charging the Public go to charities. I think the IMPS continued to get the free deal from Rex Cadman because they provided the core attendees around which the show was built and a lot of members were key supporters and officers on the organising team........and probably still are. Personally, I see room for both types of show and have argued against those who objected to the charges.........a small minority in former years.......the difference is that this year, it seems that a lot of the old stalwarts are up in arms and we are talking about people with the big collections of trucks and armour whose absence would be a real shame. Those guys clearly spend huge amounts of money to get their kit to and from a show and perhaps feel that they are being messed around? Anyway, the whole point if this is that it needs sorting out! I have heard that emails have been sent in to query all this but no response from the organisers. I am suportive of the show, although as I said, the way the charges are structured appears over complex and clumsy and I dont know where I stand in terms of filling out the entry form for my Landie and Matchless........so gawd help anyone else!

The War Peace Show is unique, so its definitely unfair to compare it to any other show.

Obviously John has to attempt to run the show at a profit rather than a loss.

And its only fair that John and his team make some changes so it will be the show that they want it to be.

This won't suit everyone, for many this show has become a cheep weeks holiday, rather than a show where people bring their best vehicle or display.

Some of the plans don't appear to have been published yet, perhaps not even finalised yet, but as most people can't even book time off work for 2016 until after Christmas its probably too soon to start panicking.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, when you say that "This won't suit everyone, for many this show has become a cheap weeks holiday, rather than a show where people bring their best vehicle or display", I am not quite sure what you are getting at. For such people, the show would still be a cheap holiday (and why not?), and there is nothing in the new system it seems to stop anyone who wants to attend with a token gesture scruffy MV. Are entries going to be vetted for acceptability? I doubt it. You cant have your cake and eat it.......ie charge and try to set illusory standards. I dont think anyone can fault the quality of show entries across the board up to now. In this regard, if it aint broke........ Ian and you are getting too defensive about this. It needs sorting through listening to people's gripes and fixing, if possible. The W&P new website and entry forms are now live and if there are fixable problems, then I hope they will be fixed, because I want to attend another great show next year!

Hi Ferg

Apparently the organisers are asking for photos of the vehicle entered, there are several possible reasons for this, but one could be that fake military vehicles can be weeded out, perhaps even ex military vehicles converted into non military specials.

In my opinion a shake up of this event has long been overdue, the final result won't suit everyone, perhaps not even me, but it may even bring back some of the exhibitors who have decided not to attend over recent years.

Only time will tell.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, yes that struck me as a possible explanation, but lets face it, you can send in any old picture if you want to.....how will they know? Plus I heard a grumble from someone that the online application caps the pic size at 5k, so its just a thumbnail. As to MVs converted to non military specials, well, they have always been welcomed and you will find a few of these at most shows (and in HMV mags) where the owner has deemed the conversion too nice/ interesting to undo. Thats the trouble, there really is no standard you would want to apply, other than a vehicle having some military connection. Actually, I can think of a few faux MVs entered just for fun........and they are fun and crowd pleasers, like a Reliant Robin tricked out like a tank! I mean you would not want the field dominated by such stuff, but it never has been so I dont think its a worry.

Yes its very debatable about what makes a genuine military vehicle, I was told the "Reliant Halftrack" was built by troops in the Falklands, so perhaps it is a "Military Vehicle".

There are a lot of people who don't like Land Rovers, but they constitute a considerable percentage of the History of British Army Transport, so it would be very wrong to exclude them, also some of them are considerably older now than Jeeps were when Historic Military Vehicle Clubs started in the 1970s.

All that aside, I believe the War and Peace Show is probably too big and needs trimming back. In a couple of years a new site will probably be needed and the bigger the show is, the less choice of venues there will be.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Maybe pictures are simply required for a catalogue or some other publication to 'showcase' the event/entries in advance for publicity reasons?...All part of the advertising...?

Personally I'm not being 'defensive' about the show, I have no reason to be having never attended it anyway...

I would imagine genuine queries will be answered at some point in the not too distant future...ultimately they have to be...

As far as resistance to change goes it's inevitable there will be some..

No one has to enter at this point in time though and as Rob pointed out many won't be able to until they can finalise leave arrangements for next year at their place of work...

Probably best to just sit back for a while and see what transpires...Ian

Why does a lot of peaple today want something for nothing if you don't want to pay stay at home .If the money is used for putting on a better show the next year then that must be a good thing. The insurance tent hire toilets postage and all the other expenses have got to be paid for by somebody. If you get a wet show you will not get the paying public through the gates . What happens then who pays it must be better to pay a small fee to keep the show going.I went on the 70th d day bike run in france which we paid a small fee if it had been more i would have still paid because it was well run and we had a great time .

I dont want to paraphrase all the correspondence posted on this on the HMVF..........have a look through this if you want to see the variety of views expressed. However, most of those who are cross about the new charges are hardly in the "something for nothing" category as they bring the big items of kit that attract the public to the Show. After all the money they expend on their vehicles, transport, fuel, insurance, etc, I think they just feel the new charges are just the final straw and why bother trailing the length of the country when they can do local shows for free. But thats just one viewpoint, I hasten to add..........although there are many on THIS site who have vehemently supported it in the past when I have tried to encourage attendance!

Ferg, I'm not quite sure what it is you want from this thread? do you want us to all back you in demanding "something", or are you hoping more forum members will give you their opinion, which would probably all be different, because we are all different.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Rob, I have posted this because the nub of the debate here is exactly the same as I faced when trying to get more people with DR bikes to support W&P in past years........."why should I pay to display my bike, etc". What seems a bit alarming is that former stalwarts of the show are now saying the same thing! I think its good to air this debate on such fora as these, because all of "us" ARE the show! And I would be surprised if the show organisers do not monitor the feelings and opinions expressed. It would be a shame to see W&P fail; there has been no other show like it and a lot of us on here (even those who would not exhibit.........ahem!) attend for the huge array of dealers stalls which are there because lots of people bring lots of interesting MVs. Or does no one care? Well we will see come July!

The problem here as I see it is the tension between the interests of the vehicle owners and those of show the organiser.

That arises from the fact the participants are looking at it from the point of view of partaking in their hobby and the organiser is looking at it as a business enterprise with the risks that entails...

I sympathise with the view that 'I am the show so why should I pay'...I've expressed that view myself enough times in the past...

However, with shows of the scale (and cost) of W&P and taking into account the vagaries of the weather and the effect that can have, I can't see that any businessman/organiser would risk such a large amount of money on bearing the full 'up front' costs...

Personally I wouldn't blame them for that, I wouldn't want to do it myself and I know most people wouldn't...

In that case, the conclusion must be that if there are going to be shows of this scale then the position and the risks being taken by the organiser, and the way he controls those, must be considered as well...

From the point of view of the participant, it is the scale and variety of this show that makes being involved worthwhile...but there is going to be a cost attached to having that type of event available...

IMO you just have to consider what type of show you like attending...Large scale 'spectaculars' like W&P or smaller local club events that by their nature don't offer so much...

If you like the former you can't expect it to be run the same way as the latter and I think it is erroneous to compare the two directly at all..

You also have to be more realistic about the way big shows are put on and funded...Ian

Good morning all,,, time 2.34 am and still in the office sorry been off line its a bit hectic having read the thread just a few quick notes I will follow up at a later date but remember 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday im in the office tel 01258857700

Item 1 :- I did pay for W&P it was not a gift,,,,,, if the corporate print companies had got hold of it ,,,the £10 charge for loos & showers would be the last of your issues

Item2, IMPS still have an allocation of tickets for their members fact ,,,, NOTE imps never had free entry ,,,, IMPS & W&P had a financial contra agreement IMPS did not take monies in return but entry tickets issued to IMPS members

Item 3;- one of the many scams in getting your mates in !!! having sat at booking in all day it was rather sad being honest ,,, Mr imps man books in his vehicle £25 two adults both meant to be imps members + two children along with his four other vehicles all complete with 4 persons in each YET none being imps members other than the driver booking in ,,,the loss being either IMPS membership or W&P ticket sale ?

Item 4 ;- based on item 3 its approximately 6 out of every 10 vehicles ran this scam ,,,question they all go for a number 1 & 2 every day and they are happy for me to pay for the removal of said items,,, I forgot plus a shower

Item 5, going back to item 3 mr imps with his 5 vehicles ,,,he + his team have arrived for their ten day holiday,,, YES over 80 % of all bookings arrive for the 10 days PS its £25 + £10 total £35,, 2016,, for ten day hols and all you have to do is bring a MV

Item 6 ;- if you don’t want to pay your £35 to enjoy the show for ten days ,,,,, bring nothing and pay for public camping £200 ,,, or park in public car park buy day ticket walk round,,,, SORRY i am a bit tight i will go for the £35 option

Item 7 ;- Service charge brought about by you the visitor ,,,you brought the issue of loos & showers not enough & unclean,, easy fix £10 charge loos & shower cleaners 24 hrs a day,, simple

Item 8 ;- you don’t have a show without my MV mr organiser !! correct PS without me you dont have no show to attend ? PS its £35 for ten days camping have a great ten day looking around the stalls and mv if you wish ?

Item 9 ;-attractions stall holders over 90% of the visitor attend the stalls ,,, A thought when I attend Netley Marsh bike jumble I get charged £60 to camp ,,,that was for one night ,,,STILL i do like going around the stalls

Item 10;- booking in ,,,the picture,,, yes the size was incorrect and yes we altered this all being correct on the website ,,, question why did no one kindly drop an email to say you could do with looking at this problem ?,,,,, reason for picture ,,,,to stop another scam people booking in and not even having a vehicle ! still it was cheap £25 ten day holiday,,,, REF mv & motor cycle or private vehicle & motorcycle whats the problem your booking form will say what you are exhibiting and the staff will see it your exhibit

Item 11,- Our digital marketing platform has brought back many MV owners that have not been to W&P for many years plus more traders so the in all we are very happy with progress in the short time in charge

Item 12;- W&P 2016 has elements never seen before ,,, during Malvern people had a sneak preview ,, and all went well

Item 13;- explain why I would set about damaging W&P this is a long term business plan to return my investment

Item 14 ;- just clear up this point the scams do not all point towards the IMPS it applies to MVT also both as bad as each other

Chaps its 3.52am good night and till the next time ,,,john

email (option): john@fieldandrurallife.com

Best of luck with the project John....I think you've answered all the points raised...

I suppose if people can't see the bigger picture they'll go off and join the flat earth society...Don't get too near the edge!.. ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes, thanks for the response. But I would suggest that characterising past practice for IMPS members admittance as "scams" is inaccurate as they did nothing dishonest under the old rules.

Well done John, I often wondered how rex made any money at all, We often arrange and pay for our own loo,so I think its worth a tenner for access to a decent loo, we the Desert rats (came first at odyssey this year) have not attended WnP with a decent display for at least three years I'm sure john is on the ball, and is aiming for higher standards than achieved in the past, try taking a camper to an RV site and see how much that costs, I believe only serious displays should be offered any Free benefits, the ones who don't want to participate should pay their corner, Just my ten pence worth, founder imps member andrew

email (option): warbikes@geemail.con,( thnik about this)

Hi Chaps
Thanks for the support 2016 W&P is looking good


Ferg just so we dont mis understand each other ive no wish to disrespect you
But understand one thing imps & mvt members ran a scam they know who the are !!!

This happened as I sat and watched it all happening !! fact

W&P is run by a collector for collectors so lets have a bit of the Dunkirk spirit and pull together

John

email (option): john@fieldandrurallife.com