Ferg,and any others, I agree with Ian, use a good brand of oil multigrade or single grade I use sae 50 single grade in the summer, as don't ride in the winter, and change your oils frequently at least once a season and never more than 2000 miles or when the oil colours up as you would find on an older well used engine , the filters when fitted will just hold back big lumps of metal so use them , clean them and/or replace, but don't trust them , just my 2p worth andrew

email (option): warbikes at gee male dot cmm, (think about this)

Ian Wright

No problem with using a multigrade oil...

20/50 is my choice for a BSA single as I think the more modern 15/40s etc. are too light..

I've done 10s of thousands of miles on multigrades without any problems at all...

I currently run Morris's SAE 40 but if I run short I put in multigrade as a 'stop gap'...

It's certain all modern oils will outperform the original as long as the grade is suited to the application....Ian

email (option): wariron@tpg,com,au

Hey! It's at least 2 days now and nobodies started a thread about what colour paint to use!

My personal prejudices are coloured by the fact that the marketing departments of oil companies have a past-track-record for making claims which the product couldn't live up to. It therefore seems safer to use an oil that no extravagent claims are being made for.

Castrol GTX used to be a 20w50 (one of the better ones, I believe)...but they changed it to a 10w40 without advertising the fact or mentioning it on the front of the container....it just seems safer to use a monograde that clearly states the contents on the tin rather than a brand name.

In my opinion, 'our' types of engines seem to sound a little silkier and run a little less hot with a fresh fill of monograde.

Bearing in mind that oil is a bit like ethanol-fuel - unlikely to have been tested in a hot-running air-cooled engine so you're on your own basically.

Any data that shows that a sidevalve single runs hotter than an OHV or OVC multi, especially when comparing a 4:1 comperession sv to a 9:1 multi that has meagerly-cooled middle cylinders, like a 3 or a 4?

(A detour to make sure douglas doesn't explode.)

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Years ago at one of the Earls Court Motorcycle Shows Duckhams 20-50 were the new kid on the block. I got chatting to the rep on the stand about the advantages of using their new oil in my motorcycle. He ask what motorcycle I had, at the time it was a B31. He said that he wouldn't recommend a multigrade in an engine that used ball and roller bearings as they chop up the long chain polymers in in the oil reducing it to a base 30 grade. If true I don't think it would effect us as we tend to change oils at low mileage, not the 10,00 or so of car owners.

I used to use Duckham's all the time until it got too expensive for my meager resources but isn't the green dye a lovely colour!

The base oil for 20W 50 is 20 grade.
That was the whole idea of multigrades.
As for balls & rollers chopping up the chains, total garbage as is the gear pumps chop up the chains.
A long chain with hundreds of atoms in it might go all of 1 Um.
Think of it.
A modern oil filter is in the order of 10 microns mesh size and the oil flows freely through it.
What braks up the chains is chemical attack, generally from acid combustion by products.

To be franklyhonest, I have now changed to 30W monograde lawnmower oil as the 44 was empty last year & I now fix mowers so get it wholesale.
And mower oil is tested in air cooled low compression engines.

ANd one of the standard tests for oil is to pass it under a large ball bearing which is progressively pressed down onto a rotating plated harder till the oi gets squeezed out & the ball grinds on the plate.
There is a similar test using rollers.

email (option): wariron@tpg,com,au

I just use a straight 50 (Castrol) like the book says for my Norton. Saves all the worry and wondering about chains, detergents and the like.

Hi,

I have a comment or suggestion,
And also a question...

First, as mentioned here, there were a lot of threads regarding oil.
This time it did not (Yet?) got to the point of
"Is it worth to use synthetic oils, or straight mineral"
And Ian did not say yet that it does not worth the money, as he does
50000 miles on a mineral, and then only to the top of engine,
and others would say that they do use synthetic.
For me, it is always makes an interesting reading material..

Anyway, Henk, maybe it would be a good idea to archive those threads at the tech' section? (With paint makers and decal/stickers threads.. )

And a question:

What about all of the molykote additives which based on Molybdenum Powder concentrate?
Is it any good, or is it distractive for ball and roller bearings?

Thanks,
Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Noam
I have strong opinions on lubrication for these early cast iron engines - based on nearly 40 years of racing them + work/sponsorship via Silkolene, Mobil and currently Plutoline.

Run a 'straight' - mineral sae 30, 40 or 50 grade oil - preferably a diesel oil. If not available then a 20-50 or similar. Usually the cheapest in the car shop.
Or better still use agricultural sae30/40 oil - used in tractor engines and transmissions (cannot remember the Shell designation).

And change it regularly.

Don't bother with additives, they can cause their own problems.
Don't use synthetic oils.
Don't run Castrol R/Veg oils on the road.

Wear on these early engines, particularly when pushed hard/raced is usually more pronounced on the camshaft and followers + sudden seizures of the big-end - ask anyone who races a Triumph/Norton Twin or B44/50 about this problem!

I had a Manx engine fail @ 3500rpm on the Dyno, which ran a certain synthetic oil - at the customers request. The court case was tramatic and as a result I no longer tune bikes commercially.

Be careful of what oil you use in the primary chain case if it has a wet clutch - some oils contain additives which will make the clutch slip.
Personally I simply give the primary chain a squirt of rear chain lub every trip out - the ES2 doesn't have a sealed chain case anyway!

Hi Nigel,

Many thanks for your answer.
Very informative and interesting !

There are one or two places where I can still find SEA 40 mono SG,
But most places do not even believe that there is even such thing as mono grade,
And try to push the 5W-30 or 10W-40 instead...
A 20W-50 mineral is fairly easy to find, from numerous manufacturers.
The cheapest are "American Eagle", which claims to be manufactured in the US,
But I doubt it... and some other Turkish made oil.
Then you have Liqui Moly and the others.

I usually go for a locally (IL) made 40 mono SG, as it is made by a known local manufacturer,
And it is up to EU and Mil' specs.

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Gearbox lubrication is another one of interest;

My Triumph (3HW) g/box is designed for OIL - fill with grease (as I received it) at your peril as the floating bush design is intended for oil lub - grease will not reach the rotating bushes.
That being said - it has no oil seals to retain the oil!!!
The Output bearing (supporting the output sprocket, can be replaced with a rubber sealed one - instead of the metal shielded version I have fitted.
The kick start shaft and gear-lever can be replaced with later parts which have 'o' ring grooves - but not much oozes out from here ....

Norton Gearbox - depending on age, really want one of the semi-fluid greases - usually used in truck steering g/boxes - this stuff is like grease but as soon as it is whipped up, it turns liquid.
Only to return to a more solid grease when at rest - that's what the ES2 has been filed with for the past 20 years so something is ok - problem is, I've forgot what I used (something from work I guess).
Again - no seals other than various felt and leather devices ........

As for BSA - not certain, someone on here will tell us.

Cuz Andy's very fast Ariel 500 has a Burman box and this runs on a handful of lard - well grease actually, so far (last two years|) he's had no problems and if anyone would he would have, the way he canes it, and minimal leaks.

Finally, I was always told not to use EP90 as it contains additives which can attack bronze bushings.
Straight SAE 90 and 140 is ok as I would guess, any of the more modern synthetics (I use a 5 grade synthetic in the B25/50) - though some of those are so thin (low viscosity) I don't think they would stay in some of our older g/box very long !!??

BSA boxes of the wartime and postwar period are designed to run on 'straight' oil, the same grade as the engine oil...

Gearbox and engine oil grades can be confusing as the sae numbers aren't the same..'90' gearbox oil for example is much lighter than that when matched to the engine oil sae scale...

I've never really gone into the subject myself reference the 'heavyweight' BSA singles...

Having followed BSAs recommendations since the year 'dot' without any problems I have no real inclination or reason to change...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Nigel,

I edited my last reply, by the way.

Once I did some 30Km on the highway with 90 grade gearbox in the M20's motor..
I bought 2 cans, one of 40 grade and another of 90.
I just understood I put the wrong one in, because of the distinctive smell
Of gearbox oil I smelled when driving...
The bike did not seems to mind.

The old M20 models also had no oil retainers and used shim.
And I know a shop to which One could go with the old design gearbox half,
And he would lath it to accept an oilseal.

The BSA uses the same oil for gearbox, engine and primary chaincase.
Basically- mono 50, or whatever you use.

How does these semi-liquid which get soft when whipped are called?..

Noam.

Again together Ian,
But can it be you think and type in English faster than me?..

Cheers!
Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

['How does these semi-liquid which get soft when whipped are called?..']

Hi Noam..It's just called 'semi fluid grease'.....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thanks Ian,

I wondered if I could find some for my primary case.
From my experience, many auto-spares and oil Sellers here are very ignorant
Regarding what they sell:

If you ask for a non-common item, they would just look at you in a glazed look,
And offer what they think is "Good for you",
And they always know better.

You need a mineral monograde 40 oil?... take the synthetic 5W-40 it is very good and on sale..
Everybody buys it...

So I thought that if it had a specific name/number, it would be easier to look for.

Currently I have an anti-smoke oil for the primary, but it does leak.
(We call it "Honey oil", because of it's looks and viscosity )
I have been told that at the past, some used to do a mix of grease and oil,
To get something very thick, between grease and oil, and use it.

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

getting a 'straight' oil can be a problem.

Now a days my first call is the internet, after that someone who does aircooled VW's as they need the same stuff, then lawn-mower repair shops and/or Agricultural suppliers.

The Tractor oil recommend to me by Silkolene(?) for racing was SHELL ROTELLA 40 - worked well in a +80HP 650 triumph outfit and a +100bhp BMW outfit, the only engine failure I had was when I switched to Mobil 1 ........ it later worked well in the van!

The grading system is different for Engine oils and Gearbox oils - as Ian says. A SAE90 gearbox oil has a lower viscosity (runnynesss) than 50 grade 'engine' oil.
Really we should be looking @ API rating for engine oils, but that' a much looooonger subject, involving ZDDP levels, additives and catalyzers, etc.

As for the primary side - would not recommend any grease type lubs as they will upset the clutch, a straight 40/50 engine oil should be ok.
You could always use the 1920's trick of 1/2 filling the chain-case with molten lard (animal fat!) - then topping it up with oil ......

Or, do what we do - a squirt of chain lub.
We regularly do runs of 150-250 miles without any problems, giving the chain a squirt at the start (as well as greasing the rockers and forks).

I'm not keen on chainlube in the primary drive as an oil substitute..

I believe the oil serves to cool as well as lubricates the chain and some of it also finds its way to the clutch rollers and engine shock absorber assembly...

When I tried chainlube I wrote off a Renolds primary chain completely on a one day, 400 mile motorway run and was lucky to get home without it snapping...Some of the rollers had broken and fallen away from the chain...

Another variation of the 'lard' trick is to use 'Linklife' chain lube which also sets in the bottom of the casing after it cools down...

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I always piss in the oil tank to keep the level correct. And it's cheap too. Never had any probs in 50,000 miles. Got to be just as good as the other suggestions

Douglas,
You see why oil threads are always fun?..
It never seems to run out of new tricks and info...

Nigel,
On the M20 there is no problem with the clutch in a grease lube,
As it is a dry type clutch: the assembly is in the wet case,
But covered with a "bowl" or "Top hat" and gasket, to keep it dry.

And Ian I agree with Ian. (Who am I to even agree with the master?... )
Many times the cush drive worns itself out, the rollers run dry, and worse-
The flywheel drive spindle shock absorber rails are scored,
As shown on the forum not so long ago..

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1340838&cmd=show

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Your right Noam..

As predicted by Douglas the oil post is running to form with different opinions, different experiences and different solutions... ...

As always it's a case of read it all and then choose whichever answer seems the best...though I wouldn't go for Freds recommendation personally... ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

We don't know what Fred drinks, Ian..

This fluid we produce can include many interesting ingredients,
Judging by the huge list we get back when we go to check it...

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

NZ

Oh yes, this is a long, usually boring discussion on many other forums as well -
I guess I've spent too many years on lubrication problems (in industry and racing) to let any discussion on oil go by without comment.

Simply, it doesn't REALLY matter what oil you put in as long as there is some....
And yes, I really did run Mazola instead of 'R' in my racing Lambretta's .....

Sadly modern oils are not as good as many think, due to reducing zinc/lead levels many cars have major cam wear problems and such like - caused by the reduction in additives because of concerns about environment and protecting the catalyzer.

One thing I am CERTAIN of is that my oldies sound better and the oil pressure tell-tales work on SAE 40 or 50 mono grade oil.
A good second best is a high viscosity multi-grade such as 20/50 or thicker.