Is this a Triumph 3SW ?

Yes indeed Steve. A good clue is those front mudguard unique type P clips on the front fork tubes. But I've never noticed the forward facing Altette before.Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

The serial on the front number plate is interesting.

C74000-C75249 was a block allocated to the Canadian Forces.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

Forward facing was the standard position for the horn in pre war Triumph factory publicity shots...There are also REME/Ministry photos showing it in that position...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Yes early Norton 16H's and Big 4's had the forward facing horn. In fact, today I received the correct down tube clamp to relocate my Big 4 horn correctly. I'd never noticed it on Triumphs though. Will have to take a closer look. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Ron...Do a 'google images' search on 'Triumph 5SW'..that brings up a few pictures...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Norton seem to have fitted these clamps and horns up to the end of contract C10217 (W50000) which would have been around March 1942 and which means that about half the WD16Hs would have had them fitted there originally. They're quite often seen hanging at odd angles....

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): robmiller11(a)yahoo.co.uk

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Dave,

Have heard this before, some 16H contracts ordered in 1944 did not get delivered till after the war!!

But some statistics would be nice per contract.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbxxx.net

Surely you have to go on the manufacture date, not the delivery date?

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Yes, I guess you're right, people searching for history on their bikes, will not like it that it had sat in a depot for a year or so!! (till the war was over)

And then it was sold off to the Greek Army in big lots, that is what happened to a lot of 16H's......

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbxxx.net

I know nothing about how long vehicles remained at depots like Chilwell after delivery by the manufacture.

In the case of Nortons where some early (1939 / 40) factory records survive, I can compare factory despatch records with Chilwell receipt records and see that there was only a delay of three or four days...so when I refer to 'delivery', I mean delivery to RAOC Chilwell which will be very shortly after manufacture (Manufacturers had no wish to stockpile and indeed would not have received fresh supplies of raw materials, had they done so).

From mid-1942 onwards, the records become even more sparse.

Much of the information in Orchard & Madden is taken from Ministry of Supply records and actual delivery did not always commence at the contracted time (especially with Norton !)

By 1941, RAOC used an odd system of numbered days that I haven't yet been able to crack....the days never quite fit unless some weeks had six days and others five...it never quite works....but production of C10217 commenced on Day 316 of 1941...towards the end of the year therefore. By Day 44 of 1942 when they went on to a continuation sheet which hasn't survived, they had received around 3000 machines.

C13845 was probably a non-WD contract and comprised 35 machines produced alongside in a hurry - No panniers or pillion facilities but with rear numberplates.

The first machines under C11082 were received at Chilwell on 10/4/1942 (Day 93). This five month lead-in from contract date to production is not unusual and it was normal with the larger contracts that production didn't start until the previous contract had been completed.

My photo files show that C10217 invariably had frame-clamp horns and C11082 had them fitted to the elongated engine studs.

Rob Miller

Ron Pier

Where have you got that information Rob? I can't find it in O&M. Ron

Hi Ron

My source is this edition by Rob van Meel, another book that in my view can be called a "bible", this one lists all the census number blocks of all Motorcycles, Trucks & Trailers in consecutive order and there is another book where the information is separated into sections by manufacturer.

Both worth having IMHO

Rob

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Rob v/d Brink certainly told me so, will send a link to him, so he can have a look, but this has nothing to do anymore with the poor 3SW!!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbxxx.net

Sorry, I didn't mean to highjack the thread with this subject. Back to all things Triumph now

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Ah gents,

To start with, we will never know the exact truth unless the missing wartime Norton assembly books turn up. I have lost my faith in that one.
Maybe we should start a search on garbage dumps all around Andover, assuming they did not shred them. Then we need loads of Iranian students as well as they have experiendce in putting shreds together.

The dates in O&M are the best they found. They also state that there are conflicting dates in several docs. This we also discovered.

What is definitly certain is that the contract date can be far off actual assy/delivery date (delivery to Chilwell that is). As said by Rik, there was no use for Norton to hold back their finished products so assy date and delivery date are within weeks max.

Contract numbers and sequence of manufacture are also not consequetive.
C6653 was built in the same period as C7353 we found in the few wartime assy books still existent.

I still have to finalise a timeline with all data I have but my illnesses have put a temporary hold on it.
It requires quite some concentration to make the puzzle from all different pieces I have.

As Lex said, there could be huge time difference between contract date and actuyal delivery.
S5161 has contract date 27-11-1943, expected delivery to start in August 1944.
One note dated 26/3/1945 states "Vehicle remaining undelivered to be made suitable for the tropics"break clause contract complete at 4600 (instead of 6000 originally to be built).
Whether the "undelivered" bikes were undelivered from Norton or undelivered from Chillwel is unknown. Certain is that many of these ended up in Greece but also in Norway after the war. Most of the Norwegian remaining bikes still have matching engine and frame numbers and they were used into the 6oties, but removed from inventory much later than that, possibly the 70 ties.

It is also clear that spare parts lists are not to be held sacred with respect to what has been on the bike. C6653 list does not show the pannier toolboxes but all contemporary pictures I have show them on the bikes. C5373 spares list shows pannier toolboxes as replacement (as well as a replacement key and toolbox lock!) This contract has a mix of pannier and standard toolboxes.

WRT horn brackets, from C10217 included upwards the remark was "if horn bracket is required, provide rough sketch of original type and quote markings appearing on the horn".
Earlier contracts spares lists did not show Horns except in the VAOS list attached to the spares list. Unfortunately I do not have all those VAOS lists.
Unfortunatly as well is that only a 1938 contract number describes "Bracket Bar clip 1 1/2 " dia." All other spares lists state "Bracket", "bracket assy" or "horn bracket assy", and no clear indication on what it may look like.
This leaves us basically to look at contemporary pictures. I have not done that yet on this item in detail but a quick scan gives one C10217 picture showing the frame tube version. One C11082 shows the engine mounted version.
This suggests the "break" point between them was in the first half of 1942.
As Rik already noted.

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl