Well, after doing my garden chores on such a nice sunny Sunday, I have now started to strip-down Vidya's 1943 James ML for a much-neded repaint in SCC No.2 Brown.......after that it will be a service and the replacement of a few parts with NOS items.............spraying planned over the next couple of weeks so she will be back on the road by May..........

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

That's what you call a quick turnaround! Why the change of colour Steve?
Wade

email (option): iron_ariel@yahoo.ca

Wade, it's basically because the entire first contract of ML's (all 3,500 of them) were built between April and September 1943 (by May of that year at roughly 500 per-month)......and by 1943 the standard factory colour for motorcycles (and other vehicles) was SCC No.2 Brown...........

I have a fair few NOS James parts and the majority are finished in brown, with a few also finished in green.......although the latter is more olive drab than the earlier khaki-green suggesting that these green NOS parts are late-war (mid-1944 onward)............olive drab replaced brown from April 1944 onward although manufacturers were required to use up older stocks of colour first and existing vehicles and parts were not to be repainted until necessary, and not just because a new colour had been introduced.............

I just want the ML to be as authentic as possible, and we have at least 98% of the original and NOS parts to refurbish her correctly..........

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Steve, I happened to be looking at the original tank on my Normandy James today, which was found in a farmers barn in Cormelles Le Royal just south of Caen. The bottom of the tank had rotted out so it now wears a replacement tank. However, the original still have the C number clearly showing but no sign of any unit markings or serial numbers. However there is a small patch of original untouched paint, which looks to be very close to the service brown that you have had mixed up. The original outer primary case also has the vertical yellow weight and balance line showing clearly. I will pass the tank to Peter so that you can look at the paint colour when you next visit.

Incidentally, I have also now received back all the levers etc from Hockley Enterprises in Southend on Sea who have done a really good job of the dull chrome plating.

Cheers,

John

email (option): tinley@btinternet.com

John, glad you are pleased with the SCC No.2 brown I had made-up locally - it was matched from wrapped NOS ML fork links I have..........

Wartime photos of ML's are few, and of those none bear any tank markings (apart from C-numbers and James insignia/lubrication instructions) other than one showing a Canadian WO astride an ML with large unit numbers painted over where the "C" number would have been..............seems that if any unit markings were applied, as yours confirms, they may have been applied to the front and rear mudguard ends only............there is additionally photographic evidence showing one ML on a landing craft prior to D-Day (strapped to the rear of a universal carrier) bearing a white star (no outer circle)on the top of the fuel tank...........

I have compiled a list of known ML survivors today, including "C", engine and frame numbers............but when you consider that (officially) the James records state that they supplied only 5,940 ML's to the Army plus a further 400 to the Admiralty (no doubt for use by RM Commando's) the total number made was tiny, even less than the WD/RE Flea, so in comparison to other makes and models they really are a rarity today and the survival rate, if my records are accurate, shows a decent number still around today with the bulk from the first (and largest) contract S.1972, for 3,500 machines delivered during 1943...........it seems that the majority of the bikes from the remaining 4 other contracts were little-used with most remaining in storage prior to disposal..........

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Steve, the paint is a very a very good match and much appreciated.

I would be interested to know how many WD ML's you now have records of? It seems that Stuart Bray always has a few for sale.

As well as the ML with the star clearly marked on the tank ( I also have a photo of a G3WO with a star on the tank) I have 2 other D Day photos of James ML's clearly showing the unit numbers and these are not painted over the C number. One of these is on the back of a vehicle coming off Sword beach and has a number 57. It seems this could be either an Infantry or Airborne Div number? The other photo I have is not so clear and is of an ML on the back of a carrier coming off the beach at Hermanville. This seems to be number 88 but could possibly be 89, however, the carrier is clearly marked with number 69 although I do not think it is a 69. This bike also appears to have C number 5147384. Cheers JT

email (option): tinley@btinternet.com

I'll copy down my frame number and you can add it to your list
Dave

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

SCC No.2 is, I suspect a much under-used colour for portrayals of NW Europe. My Dad was L of C and landed on 25th June but if I ask him about vehicle colours during 1944-45 is always most insistent that they were "nearly all a browny colour".

Hi John

Glad to have assisted - Vidya's ML will be in the same brown....nice to find a local paint supplier who will match anything at £12 a litre that can be brushed or sprayed...and matt....it's a synthetic paint and good quality too........I will try them in due course for KG No.3 green.....!!

"57" is a code generally used by infantry units on (usually) either a green, red or brown base square...........any ML transported on a carrier would likely have belonged to the same unit so the code number carried would have likely been the same.......it is difficult on occasions to accurately view details of markings in period photos.............

Most ML's that are seen in and around Normandy are all from the first contract S.1972 and many of the "C" numbers seen appear to be around "C51573??" which suggests frame numbers around the "1200" - ish mark...........from what I gather, both your ML's fit in with these and one is a genuine survivor of the D-Day battles...........interestingly, it is thought that the ML was first used at both Salerno during late-1943 and then Anzio during early 1944, prior to D-Day..........

The first contract of ML's (3,500) were built from March 1943 onward at the following rate........ Frame ML 2 to ML 3541 – C 5146002 to C 5149541 (delivery from 3/43 at 300 p/m, 5/43 at 400 p/m and then 500 p/m. (600 by 5/43, 1,000 by 6/43 & contract delivered by at the latest 10/43 ?).........as bikes arrived at Ordnance depots it is likely that distribution to units commenced thereafter.............

As some of the earliest surviving WD-ML's are to be found in Italy today, most with very low frame numbers (two or three digits only) this would suggest the Salerno and Anzio connection..............

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

I think you have my frame number on record Steve. ML 7619 (It's quite lightly stamped) It's from near the end of production in 1944 so I'll leave it Olive Green to match my NOS headlamp that was already that colour.

I will however address the engine to be painted as we have already discussed.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Here's my NOS petrol tank, the right transfers have been made now by Classic Transfers. (thanks Ron!)





Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@sameagain.net

So, is this the start of you ML project Lex ? Or are you firmly a "Flea" man ???????

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Steve,

The Flea is a real love/hate relationship, and am really looking forward to find some more James parts!! have several NOS items like you, but will start with finding some wheels I think!!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@sameagain.net

Steve,

Looking again at the original tank for my Normandy ML the original paint under the tank seems to be green. This is a first contract bike with frame number 1313. It would seem that perhaps it came out of the factory green and then later painted brown. I will deliver the tank to Peter so you can have a look at it. Cheers John

Hi John. James manufactured no bikes prior to 1943 since pre-war (other than the odd autocycle or other lightweight).......but, they were involved in other war production prior to then so may have had some KG No.3 on the premises ? By 1942, SCC No.2 brown was standard, other existing manufacturers receiving stocks of this during that year as KG No.3 ran out........as a "new" bike manufacturer in 1943, James would have likely received stocks of SCC No.2 only.......BUT, if the factory had any KG No.3 still available then this would likely have also been used up for some ML production........

Our ML (frame ML 3401) was originally SCC No.2 brown under the green currently worn...........some of my NOS ML fork links are in a card box dated "May 1943" and early if you consider that ML production didn't commence until April '43....and these are SCC No.2 brown
.......

I'm sticking with brown !!!!

Any chance of posting pictures of your original tank....? I am particularly interested in the size and format of the "C" number painted on the tank....!

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Hi Steve,
This ML appeared on Channel 4 D Day as it happens. It was strapped to a half track. Sorry about the crap pictures, I took them off the telly.


I'm not advanced enough to work out a better way of getting this type of image.
BTW my email has not been working for the last week, sorry if you have been trying to mail me.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Do the frame numbers differ between WD and civvy versions ?. My brother has an original unrestored 1946 ML, we have often wondered if it was civilianised after the war and sold, it still wears its original Birmingham registration

email (option): vaughanmiles@btinternet.com

Vaughan, last official WD ML produced carried frame number "ML 8500"......BUT, the next 1,500 were cancelled WD orders..............

Some early post-war ML's with frame numbers after "8500" (up to around 10000) are indeed ex-WD cancelled production........they are basically identical to the WD model other than the finish.......this was generally maroon but black could also be ordered........main differences were no decompressor fitted, civvy-type light-switch fitted, longer mudguards in most instances fitted, rear numberplate added, petrol tank filler cap civvy-type without the WD-type vent, and a rim and glass added as the blackout mask no longer necessary............some of these early civvy versions still used-up existing stocks of WD parts, including the folding footrests, shortened mudguards, DU42 headlight, etc........later specific civvy ML production from specifically between 1947 to 1948 (when ML production ended) featured a modified frame (rear-wheel mounting plates cut short and tyre-pump mounts no longer welded to the frame, now separate items), improved (more rigid) handlebar mounting (no longer folding), rigid non-folding footrests, long mudguards now standard, "kidney" shape toolbox instead of the cylindrical WD-version, a rear carrier, and a different headlight, tail-light and switch...........also changed was the central stand which was now far more substantial and less prone to bending with a clip to secure when not in use....plus a speedo and drive available as "extras"......

Only 5,940 ML's were supplied to the WD (Army) between 1943 and early 1945 plus a further 400 to the Navy............but, between 1945 and 1948 a fair few thousand civvy ML's were manufactured, frame numbers appearing to run sequentially, and I have seen a 5-digit frame as high as "ML 27***"......far more civvy made (and around) than genuine ex-WD production..........

Mick, thanks for the images !! You will find a few emails in your "in-box" when you get back on-line !!!!

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Stev my ML is finished in maroon,, that because its been civi restored,the frame no is ML 6826, so from last contract, don't know engine no will look over weekend and let you know. when its painted it wll be brown , cos I like the colour, I also have most of a ML found under a hedge with lots of WD parts the frame no is ML 1286 the engine no is 539/594 Andrew .h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Just as a reminder Gents, Daren still needs a rear hub to get his to France, even if he just borrows one or a rear wheel.

I've been in contact with over 300 museums via the museum trust and gone direct to, well all of them I could find including some in the the US and Oz, we found one chap who'd lend us a complet rear wheel from a '47 one should we need. One museum offered us a loan motorcycle but handling such a motorcycle was a bridge too far on a trailer or 'thrown' in the back of a van, so we had to decline.

email (option): kit247@hotmail.com

Andy, get it back in khaki !!!!!! A lot of surviving ex-WD ML's were "civilianised" after WW2.......Vidya's ML was first registered in 1953 as "Ex-WD - Rebuilt"............

All ML Villiers 9D engines should have an engine number prefixed "AAA" and suffixed "A"..............number is on the engine rear just behind the top of the gearbox...............

"Hedge" ML had WD frame but the number quoted is not the engine number......

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Kit, I'm a wheel short myself so sorry can't help....rumour is that the ML hubs for both military and civvy versions are unique to that model.........note that both have 36 spoke wheels (not the common 40) and use "WM0" size rims to fit 275/19 tyres..........

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Hey Kit,
assuming the MOD does not now f**k it up for us all I will be arriving at the camp site on the 30th May. If you are really stuck I could bring along my rear wheel for Daren to use. I'll want it back when I leave on the 8th though.
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.plus.com

I think we may have sorted Darens back wheel.

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Don't worry stev it will not stay maroon for long, next year perhaps. I have just too many bikes that need to be restored and been a bit slow last four years , long story,got the bit between teeth now,The hedge ML frame blasted and painted , will collect a few more bits together next weekend for more blasting the Hubs might be ok just need time , my new storage arrives at easter , A nearly new 20ft container this will allow me to store bikes out of workshop,Have two in house,!!"and by putting a solar roof on and ventilation to keep heat down and sweating the container is the way to go but will never get to where Ron is with his collection, Andrew.h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

And I have just started an engine revamp of mine. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Ron will you paint it green, anyway what was wrong with that it needs stripping down, Andrew.h.

email (option): warbikes@gmail.com

Hi Andrew.
Originally my ML had a post war engine so I rebuilt it with WW2 crank cases that I got from Steve. After which I was unable to engage the gears. So I needed to re visit the bike to see what I had done wrong.
So far, all I can find is that I think this plunger spring is wrong and much too heavy. I'll get some new parts from Villiers Services and rebuild again and paint the engine and exhaust and dull chrome the two down pipes as it would have been from the factory. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I should report that having had another look at my Normandy James ML tank in the daylight that the tank was originally brown and NOT green as I stated before. It is funny how different light makes colours appear a different shade.
Also Ron, a very very minor point of detail but note from the photo of the Canadian on the ML that there is a full stop after the letter C and my original tank also has this. I have never seen it on C numbers on other makes. Cheers, John

email (option): tinley@btinternet.com

John. Steve has sent me a picture of your tank and given me the order to fit that Dot . However mine is from near the end of production in 1944 so I'll be keeping the green colour. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Good Afternoon,

I am about to purchase a James ML motorbike but I cannot locate the frame number. Where are the most common places to look for when searching for serial numbers? I did notice a brass tag on top of the engine that describes the type of oil that is to be used in the 2 stroke engine. Was this a common practice for the bike used in WWII?

Thank you very much!

p.s - I was able to locate a number on what looks to be the "frame". The number reads ML 28181. Any idea of what this could be?

email (option): lentzbrandon@hotmail.com

Brandon, the frame number on ML's is located at the base of the front-frame headstock on the right-side..........genuine WD ML's do not exceed "ML 8500" although the next 1,500 were cancelled WD orders and finished in civvy colours............James made the ML for the civilian market from 1945 right through to 1948 and in volume too, and very popular it seems to have been...........frame numbers ran consequitively and one with a five-digit "ML 28***" number is late (47-48) civvy manufacture but not too difficult to convert back to a WD replica (unlike the WD Flea that is wholly different to later civvy models)............you will need to source certain parts and much of the WD tin-ware can be sourced or modified by Terry Roberts at Metal Magic.........

The brass lubrication plate is standard on all Villiers 9D engines, although some late post-war civvy ML's went over to an aluminium plate but otherwise identical...........the engine number will be to the rear of this plate, WD engines being prefixed "AAA" and suffixed "A"............

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk

Here's the pressed steel contract tag from Vidya's ML.....1st contract........



And the reverse........note the traces of cad/nickel plate remaining......

email (option): sjmwdbikemad@aol.co.uk