Hi Guys,
A little background first. I sent a set of very rusty girders to Jake in September 2012, after many problems chasing him, I finally found out that he had suffered from a fire next door and it was holding things up. So, OK, we finally got there.
His remit was to refurb the forks and completely re-tube them so that I could just bolt them onto the bike when I got them back. I sent down a spring, the link plates ( with two spares ) the headstock assembly with top nut and the forks. I was quoted £400 to complete which I thought was a lot, but he came recommended, but when the forks were returned, they had been re-tubed and the links bushed and bolted but the spring and tension assy were not there at all.
After speaking to Jake, he told me that it would cost another £250 to complete. Reluctantly, I paid him and he sent some more items through which still don't leave it complete, but also I am a little worried about the main spring attachments are 'not standard' to say the least. Photo's follow of his work, have a look and let me know what you think and if you would send your job to him on this evidence.
Darren

email (option): dwrudd@lineone.net

It looks like the sort of work I would have done at metalwork at school, not very impressive.

I wonder why he has made the figure of 8 brake rod fitting?? I suppose money wise it is easy to rattle up hundreds of pounds even at a reasonable hourly rate. Maybe that is why some of the final fetling and prepairing for paint is left for the owner to do.

I really like Jake and he has helped me out over the years. But I was absolutely dismayed when I stripped my M20 forks to check on serious wear to find that Jake had used that 'Oillite' Sintered bronze during their refurb about 2000 miles before. This stuff had totally worn out and disintegrated. One thing I can't be accused of is lacking in the greasing department. I'm telling myself that it was just an error on his part by accidentally picking up the wrong material.....
.......But I need convincing. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Ron
The figure 8 fitting was already on the original, so he has just cut the tubes off and re-fitted it.

As I said, the originals were 'very' pitted, and you can see this on the original bits in the photo, but having been in engineering and supply over the last thirty years, I wish I had done them myself now.

email (option): dwrudd@lineone.net

If it's any consolation. I have just stripped another set of M20 forks for repainting. Which have been re-bushed by my friend John. The braze splatter is quite apparant (as is the rest of the frame lugs) and I did some sanding and loads of high build primer to lose it. I guess they weren't too fussy with WD bikes? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Darren, to me they look like an extremely pitted set that have been rescued by retubing, I've taken the paint off lots of BSA girders & some are neat but some (possibly rushed wartime sets) are very messy with lumps of braze left all round joints, its the structural integrity that's the main thing.
Those type of spring holders he has made were used by other manufacturers on girders so no big deal if you can't get the correct ones.
they will be fine once cleaned up & painted.
Maybe as you say have a go at it yourself another time but if it was easy money there would be more people doing it.

The problem is that to get them as perfect as you'd like to see them would probably have taken many, many hours and run up a bill of about £3000. There are certainly some rough looking bits on his work, but given what he started with, perhaps we shouldn't be too critical? The main thing, as has already been said, is that the materials he's used are correct and fit for purpose, much of the rest is cosmetic and will be hidden by a good clean up and lashings of Khaki Number 3.

Well no one would dispute £650 is a fair bit of money but first you have to consider what has gone into the forks (as a monetary value) in materials...There is the tube, spindles, bushes, link spindles, nuts and washers, damper spring and friction discs..Brazing rods and gas (the last at disassembly as well as reassembly....That covers the bulk of it though there are other smaller, less tangible costs...
An hourly rate of ,say, £35 for two days workshop time would be £560 (16 hours x £35), leaving £90 for the items listed....16 hours to complete that job?...not ridiculous
These figures are purely arbritary but it can be seen that the cost isn't completely unreasonable, even if arrived at by a different and more complete calculation....

The job is bound to look rough...those castings are badly pitted. There is nothing much that can be done about that and it is also the nature of a brazed up 'tube and socket' assembly that there will be 'run off' of the braze from the joints....

Now there are the aspects of the job that I would say are negative...

There should be no evidence of the application of a disc grinder/sander/grinding wheel in my opinion..The use of any of these should not be regarded as a 'finishing' technique in my book...

The 'figure of eight' assembly is not only incorrect for a set of M20 forks but looks too 'far gone' to be reused anyway I would say...I think here a new piece to the correct spec. should have been made and fitted.

The main spring mount(s)are also completely incorrect for a set of M20 forks..These follow the practice used on Triumph forks and others...
Again the correct parts should have been made or sourced here...
They are M20 forks and should have been refurbished to the correct specification for an M20 unless any known alteration was approved for retention or accepted for fitment before the work was carried out..
I'm assuming here, as you haven't mentioned it, that these alterations were made/kept without your express approval...

Finally, whatever has been done to the side damper plate has been carried out to a very poor standard...

So to summarise...I don't think the price is unreasonable on the assumption all the work was well executed. I do think some aspects of the finishing are rather below a good standard (but could be lived with). However, the side damper plate, 'figure of eight' bracket and particularly, the spring mounts, I would basically find unacceptable...
I don't think anyone should seek to justify careless refinishing and spec. alterations on the basis of what it might have cost to put them right if they had been done correctly...
The whole point of using Jake was to get them done correctly...
A job has primarily to be carried out to a good specification and not have the standard of workmanship and spec. 'trimmed' or compromised to produce a particular price...
If you are carrying out refurbishment work and you can't get anyone to pay you what it costs to do a good job then it is best to find something else to do..
In this case Jake could have suggested you go and find all the correct spring mounting parts before he proceeded with the work..That wouldn't have increased his price at all, in fact it might have cost less...And the forks would then have been correct...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

All through this thread & the previous one about these forks ive had a concern that we only have one side of it & no matter how reasonable people are the story almost always differs if you get both sides & i think we should be cautious as to what spec was or wasn't agreed.

For example maybe Jake was waiting for Darren to supply spring mounts & under pressure to deliver the job agreed a compromise .. none of this is fully clear from what i have read & i can't help thinking/worrying that Jake might not have been made aware of the dissatisfaction.

[ 'I'm assuming here, as you haven't mentioned it, that these alterations were made/kept without your express approval...']


In my post I did qualify my comments regarding modifications for that exact
reason...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Those spring mounts are a piece of cake to swap over when correct ones are sourced with top links removed & a block under the bike.
But yes that damper plate is inexcusable

Thank you for your comment Fred. But just to clarify. After an initial phone call to discuss the job, I sent the forks down to jake with a letter stating that I needed a set of forks complete and re tubed. I understand that you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear and the badly pitted metall would be evident. That is not my issue here. The issue is that after seeing the forks, jake 'quoted' verbally the price for a proper refurb using the correct parts for the bike model and year. I agreed a price and from his advertising and sump magazine references I expected a good quality job.

This clearly has not happened and the reason for my post rather than going down to see jake face to face is two fold.
1) if he treated me like a fool and took the proverbial, it would not end pretty.
2) I wanted to know what people on here honestly thought before I look at possible refund or small claims court if things don't go smoothly as I respect the knowledge that is evident on here and my expected standard of work might have been too high.

Thank you also to Ian, you always seem to talk sense and I am glad to hear your analysis which looks balanced and well thought out once more.

I hope that perhaps it also stands as a warning to people to expect a standard of work, not the glossy adverts that promise perfection.

email (option): dwrudd@lineone.net

No Problem Darren, I'm happy to give my opinion...But please don't quote me directly in any dispute as I do know Jake personally from previous dealings.

My current problem is that I want a set of forks done for my own bike...I have an excellent set to start off with, most of which is NOS but there are two things I have to consider...I really expect the level of accuracy that Jake has previously provided..and they have to be completed within a reasonable time frame as I am rebuilding my M20 in readiness for next June..by which time it has to be fully run in and 'settled down'...

As far as I know there isn't anyone else to do this work..Percival Brothers and Webb took 2 years to complete my mates forks and their workmanship was pretty poor to say the least. I have also had bad results from Ray Daniels...and I'm not even sure he is still in business...It's a problem...

Mail me directly if you want any of the correct parts for your forks...I may be able to help....
....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ian, since your forks don't need straightening or re-tubing. Can't you just purchase the required reamer and make the bushes to do it yourself? I think Henk will confirm, that he makes his own bushes (and pins) and with a bit of engineers guess work and trial and error, he makes the bushes to size (No reaming). No one pulling your strings then. Just a thought! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Ian,

I would certainly not name anyone with regard to any action I pursue, I would not need to.

I will email you shortly
Darren

email (option): dwrudd@lineone.net

If one refers to the pics of other sets of M20 forks on here it looks as if the brake cable abutement [or figure of 8 as its called here] has been fitted on the opposite side?

Incidentaly there is part set of WOG3 girders on ebay now 141023076476 that look as if someone has had a poor go at resetting the tubes.

Maybe he got told to fork off?

As this is a public forum for WD bikes, there may be a chance Jake sees peoples comments for himself..?

The bracket is rough but I don't think the work on the fork tubes look that bad, you'll never get brazed lugs to look like it did when it left the factory, as they were pinned and put in an oven, so the tubes look quite neat. A sand over and prime and I'm sure they'll be fine. I know what it's like when you pay a lot of money and expect it to come back like new, it's always a bit of a compromise. However, changing them from the standard set-up without consent isn't good.

Alternatively, you could have bought an Indian made set for £300

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-BRAND-NEW-BSA-M20-COMPLETE-FORK-GIRDER-ASSEMBLY-/271076925063?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3f1d719e87

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

If you blast the paint off an Indian set and take a good look at them Jakes work will suddenly begin to look a lot better.. ...
I took a detailed look at a set that a friend bought and was so impressed with the quality I had to rush up to the workshop and check to see if they would fit in my scrap bin...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi folks.
I'm building an M20 framed bitsa & looking up fork re-tubing I found this thread & forum.
Resurrecting old thread...

I hope it ended satisfactorily to both parties.
I once sent a valuable (to me)BSA tank to a very well known (at the time) tank repairer. I was told "about 3 months" & figured that 6 months or a bit more was a possibility... Over 18 months & after many (polite) phone calls later I got a 95% restored but different(ie not mine) tank back complete with minor faults (that mine never had & some of which but not all, could be hidden by filler & paint). I was so glad to get any tank back at all that I never pursued "satisfaction". They made no effort to contact me at any time. I have bad-mouthed the repairer ever since - unfair?
That said, we're often pleased to get things at a "good price" (ie cheap!) & don't take into account the costs of running a business from premises other than a garden shed.

Any other recommendations for re-tubing or has anyone tried it themselves - jigs etc?

There's no one I would recommend...If you send your forks to Percival Brothers and Webb you're unlikely to see those for at least 18 months as well..

Jake has done some nice work for me in the past but frankly, the stories I have been hearing over the last couple of years have put me off using him ...If true he seems to have both delivery and quality problems to resolve..

I would think the best course is to look at carrying out the work yourself, possibly with the help of a local precision engineers and/or fabricators...

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I had Dave Plumb (MESS motor cycles) of this forum rebuild my links. The job, price and turn around time were excellent
I don't know if retubing is something he would tackle, but it's worth asking him.

Bernhard Plat from Austria offered me this job seven years ago. I don't know does he still do it. It was too expensive at that time for me. 600€ for repairing really very bad forks doesn't sound unfair today but I found set of forks in ok condition from local jumble here for ten times cheaper (lucky me)

http://www.bsaberni.at/index.html

Hi rob.
The issue was not satisfactory at all.
If I find another set as spares, I will do them myself as I hate being lied to which is the root of the issue.

I have spent many hours finishing the forks to a standard acceptable to me and am just awaiting some parts to complete them which have been promised.

I have struck it off as experience and would not recommend anyone to use them.

email (option): dwrudd@lineone.net

Hi Darren...I have all the parts back from the powder coater now...I'll get them sent off this week....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I left a set of Empire star 1936 forks with Jake to refurbish.He avoided me and finally answered on facebook that he sold them at auctio to pay for storage!So my question is does anyone know of a complete set for sale?Will M20 forks fit?If anyone out there bought my forks I will be happy to buy them back.I bet Jake sold them straight away.I'm taking him to court
Best regards..alangrey007@hotmail.com

email (option): alangrey007@hotmail.com