Does anyone know where to get the stencils for the exact number type on the photo? Look at the '5', '8' and '6'. An address of a painter in Holland who can do the job well would also help me.
Axholme doesn't have the correct stencils for me.
Any info will be appreciated.
Sven, is that your tank ? It would be really useful if you could measure distance from bottom edge (back and front)and dimensions.
Anyone who can play with computer graphics could recreate that font. Certainly a professional graphics firm could do it and supply you the stencils as well. Can Axholme not modify an existing one or work from tracings - they copied my formation markings based on tracings.
I wish it was mine Rik!!
I've heard this number appeared when the tank was cleaned...the owner sent me an e-mail with all the dimensions.
I have quite some pictures with Nortons having this type of numbers, I personally think this is the nicest version. The pictured motorcycle on the forum has the same type.
Axholme tried several types but didn't come close enough to this pattern.
Bram gave me an e-mail address which I just sent my request to; hopefully they can help me.
I wish it was mine Rik!!
I've heard this number appeared when the tank was cleaned...the owner sent me an e-mail with all the dimensions.
I have quite some pictures with Nortons having this type of numbers, I personally think this is the nicest version.
Sven
Sven, if you mean 'nicer than than the small numbers on a black background edged in white' then we might not be on talking terms any more....
I think that you're quite right to be concerned about the exact form of the numbers. The difference is in the details. Do you think that the originals were sign-written ? If so then the form is to some extent dependent upon the brush strokes.
Ok, ok Rik, of course I meant the numbers on 'late war' bikes.....
The numbers like yours in a black square are from such an exceptional beauty that I wouldn't dare taking these in my consideration.........
Ron mailed me this picture and this is how I would it being done. Luckily someone I know (and a regular visitor of this forum) is a well experienced painter and offered me to paint the numbers on, so all I need is a good pair of stencils.
Ramon, thanks as well. You gave the same contact person Bram gave me. An e-mail has been sent.
A good signwriter is worth his weight in gold...The chap who did these has done nearly every bike I've built for the last 40 years..The Enfield was the first one..an absolutely faultless white and gold leaf job....
Hi Sven...It's great to watch these guys in action...Somewhere on you tube there is some film of them lining tanks at the Triumph factory.
I've never owned an Indian Enfield but I did get to ride one of the last of the 'old style' Indian bikes and was impressed with how smooth it was...My Brother in law has one of the new ones which he is very happy with but I haven't seen it 'in the flesh' yet...
I was a great Enfield fan years back and I have always considered them to be under rated...The bike in the picture was a 1959 Constellation...the first of two of that model that I owned...I still get tempted to have another of the Enfield 'big twins',,,Ian
When I stripped the layers of paint (including Pride and Clarke maroon) off my Matchless tank, the numbers appeared and were quite roughly stencilled on, which is how I've redone them. They weren't nice, neat, sign written full numbers like the ones you've all shown, presumably my rough stencilling would have been an 'in the field' paint job done quickly by some Squaddie? I would show you some photos, but when my hard drive crashed I lost everything! Wedding photos, kids first steps and worst of all, my restoration photos of the Matchless!
I know the solution for a harddrive crash.....
We had the same..including all the kids first step photos etc, but I've found a company who is experienced in data recovery. Even though it's not cheap, it's better than nothing!
If you still have your harddisk, you can contact them on info@altirium.com
I took the old laptop to a local company and they said there was nothing to be done, it couldn't be saved, so as it was getting very old anyway, I took it to the tip and got a new one. Since then, a couple of people have told me that it could probably have been saved after all, so I wish I'd just left it up in the attic instead of throwing it away! Luckily I had backed up most of my files and photos and am just missing about a six month lump, which included most of the Matchless restoration. It's my own fault, must back up more often!
For my bike I have been working with Adobe Illustrator.
I have made every single font in this program matching the shape of the original numbers.
These are not available in any existing font so I have made my own!
I can now make any combination in any size and send it to a plotter to make a paint mallet and spray-paint it.
Have a look:
If the owner of the first picture is willing to share more detailed photo's, sizes etc. I can get the numbers even more accurate, to a 100% match. Worth sharing the result with all of us perhaps?
I did all my fonts by just looking at old photo's.
The comment I have on my own project is that the numbers should have more space in-between and the tail of the 4 should be sightly longer.
In the old days, British vehicle registrations were painted onto the numberplate holder, nut just WD ones. Quite some old manuals have examples of the font to be used for those figures.
I'll dig one out, if nobody beets me to it.
The font used, although to a general standard, was subject to interpretation by the individual signwriter. Daan's font is undoubtably correct, but mine also is a straight copy taken from old photos. So a certain amount of leeway is totally correct.
Same with the Unit signs when they were hand painted. You only have to see the differences in the period pictures to see how some were obviously painted 'at leisure' whilst others were done 'at the gallop' and the details are very different. Various examples of the Polar Bear show really crude attempts whilst others closer to the 'original' look quite a different animal
There were a number of phases in the application of the WD numbers. Prior to mid-1940, machines were despatched un-numbered and it is obvious from the common style amongst RAOC machines of various makes and the different RASC style that they were signwritten at the receiving depots.
After this, the factories were paid to apply numbers initially to the now vacant number plate position and then to the fuel tanks. They were paid 1/- per machine for this.
There is no doubt that across the various contracts, styles stayed very similar and that as the numbers, where signwritten, were applied with a single-stroke brush, they had squared edges to the strokes.
I'd say that Daan's is a very close style, subject to his own comments.
Where differences arise is with numbers that were re-painted in service. It therefore needs to be borne in mind whether one is intending to replicate the ex-factory / depot finish or a repainted machine.
The best solution in my opinion is either to copy a period photo or to look at a spread of images from the same contract and build up a composite image.
An ex Army signwriter was looking at the signwriting on my M20 and commented he had 'painted hundreds of those bloody things'....I asked him about the methods used for application of numbers and he said that in his experience most were hand painted but they 'occasionally' used stencils....I guess in the factories the chaps who lined the 'civvy' tanks simply turned to numbering them instead...I must admit I don't recall seeing very many pictures with a stencilled font...Like all hand applied paintwork there would have been minor variations of the laid down standard for various reasons...Ian
In terms of stencils, it seems to have been mainly an RASC thing and some makes more than others.
This detail shot shows machines from the 1940 Norton contract C5612 being despatched (I suspect from Chilwell). The signwriter's chalk guide lines are clearly visible as is the WD number chalked or chinagraphed on the tank top. Presumably an Ordnance clerk checked the engine / frame numbers and the signwriter followed. This will be a frame in the range W7822 - W7831
The other tanks in the image show lots of 'OK's chalked on and an 'OIL'
Tickler position shows that the threads cut in the float chambers or lids must have been random.
Lex might be interested to see that the dip switches appear to be a chromed civilian pattern.
The numbers in the earlier photo were probably applied at Chilwell as these are from the early part of the contract. This is the first Norton contract where the MoS ledgers refer to an additional charge for painting the numbers and it only applied to (presumably the last ?) 998 machines out of 3998 delivered. The date shown relates to approval of the costs. Delivery was complete by September 1940.
"Charge of 1/- per machine for painting WD numbers is accepted. Number of machines involved 998"
Somewhere, I have a similar entry for M20s but the cataloguing is a little lacking
Very nice Daan!! have sent Sven also a lot of samples of C numbers, for Norton.
But if you really like a challenge, I have an original Matchless tank, with C number on, and would like a drawing of that, but then C0123456789 if possible??
Please contact me on my email, and I'll send you some pictures, the font does not look like anything existing!!!