Hello

I know that this is a forum BSA WM 20, but

can you tell year -month- production

norton 16h wd

frame number W85103
engine number W90347

greetings Tomek

email (option): polus_77@tlen.pl

Hi Tomek,

This is a WD motorcycle forum and all questions about military motorcycles are welcome.

Most non military motorcycles questions are usually also welcome

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

Rick, I think that you may have looked up the wrong number. Tomek's frame is W85103 and this number isn't actually shown in Orchard & Madden.

However, the numbers are included in the RAOC Chilwell receipt cards and actually relate to contract S.2602 - Census numbers C5266965 - C5271964 - frame/engine numbers W83765 - W88764. By this stage, the last two digits of the frame numbers were reflected in the census number and this machine would have been C5268303.

Although the contract dates from 1943, delivery was scheduled at 1600 per month commencing January 1944 which should be when this one was built.

The engine does indeed relate to S.5161 which was the last big wartime contract which was reduced from the original 6000 demand. I calculate that it would have been installed in C5484747 It would have been delivered during June 1945 (after the end of the war in Europe).

Hello Rik

I am sure about frame number W85103. This norton 16h came from Norway army.

Please tell me why some of norton 16h wd for example with frame number W91338 on norton 16h wd website are described "1944/1945". (frame and engines numbers)



I asked about date of production not deliver to army. Is it possible to determine how long (approximately) before delivery to the army motorcycle was built.

Tomek

email (option): polus_77@tlen.pl

Tomek, You will have to ask Rob van den Brink for the precise reason that he has used particular dates on his website. I assume that at the time he added those entries, he was pretty sure that it dated from 1945 but didn't yet have the proof. New information is regularly found but it is time-consuming work in Government archives.

With the exception of incomplete records from 1939-40, the wartime Norton production records have not survived so it is impossible to place a definite production date and in any case, it is usually the despatch date that is noted.

It is clear from the earlier records that machines were not stockpiled at the factory and it is possible to see how they left the factory in small quantities each day. It was usually two or three days between leaving Norton and being booked in at RAOC Chilwell but once there, they could stay in stock for months or years.

It is clear from surviving machines that Norway took a quantitiy of new Nortons to help with the establishment of a post-war army. These would have been supplied with the agreement of the British Government from War Department stocks.

Do you need to know date of manufacture in connection with registering the motorcycle ?

Hello Rik

Thanks for your help.

I am going to buy this Norton 16h wd and I want to know as much as possible about this motorcycle.

Norwegian registration card indicates that Nornton was produced in 1940, but like you see it is not possible. This is not the first time. When I bought a Dodge WC 51 from 1942, norwegian registration card indicated that it was manufactured in 1940, which is not possible. Dodge WC series production began in 1942.

Tomek

email (option): polus_77@tlen.pl

Wow - good stuff! Rik, as long as you have your books open... What can you tell me about my 16h - W41738?

John

John, your bike came well towards the end of C7353 (17000 machines), the largest of the wartime contracts, placed at the time that the Dunkirk losses were being replaced. Although a certain amount has to be inferred,it looks as if it would have been produced in mid-1941.

The WD serial number would have been C4401764.

The production records for this contract are incomplete but we know that delivery was agreed at 2000 per month following completion of the previous contract, C6653 (The figure of 2000 per week in Orchard & Madden is a typo) and the first bike, W26001 was delivered in October 1940. By the end of December, they had delivered about 2500 so were not quite on target.

The next contract placed was C9062 for 1893 machines but this was a non-standard crated-for-export contract, probably for the Far East and looks to have been built alongside C7353.

The next standard contract, C10217 commenced in June 1941 and this would tie in pretty well with an eight month period for the completion of 7353. I would strongly suspect a May / June 1941 build date for yours.

This contract started off with the twin steel pannier toolboxes but was amended to include 10,000 odd with canvas panniers and pillion equipment and incidentally it was the first to be fitted with tyre security bolts.

Bikes from this contract went to the Middle and Far East with quite a few staying in the UK, including delivery to Canadian forces.

Rik,
Thank you so much. That information is great and helps me place this old mechanical beast in it's proper place in time. The census number and some of it's configuration details will be of great use as I plan on stripping the bike down in the next few months and giving it a decent restoration job. Judging from the looks of it, it hasn't had one in a loonnng time - if ever. :-)

In it's current state, it has many improper parts. Part time, I have spent the past couple of years acquiring various bits for the rebuild. I have most everything needed to start. I am being careful when I do though. In the States existing expertise like you guys have "across the pond" is lacking, so it will be pretty-much all me (and any help from these great forums). The one big thing on my list of wants has been proper levers. They are either unobtainable and/or priced in parallel with platinum. I will use some old-style Doherty's I have found as reasonable fascimiles.

Money-wise, I will most likely never get out of it what will be put into it but I'm not sure that was the intent anyway. I will be happy if I can get a neat piece of history back to an operational machine with reasonable accuracy of build.

One thing of notice - I have 5 bikes from the 60's to the 2000's. I also have a number of nephews. Of all my bikes, they are more attracted to the "old army bike" even though I think it looks sad and does not run. Maybe I need to take back what I have said about their taste in women now...

Rob vdB has questioned me over the dates given in respect of S.5161 as they differ from what we have previously discussed. I do indeed appear to have misinterpreted my rather untidy pencilled notes.

12th June 1945 does in fact look to be the date that production under the contract ended and in view of the fact that W90437 is one of the lower numbers, it would have been produced early on.

This contract was dated 27/11/1943, Accepted by the Ministry of Supply on 8/2/1944 and scheduled for delivery at 1200 per month commencing August 1944. However, this does not seem to have been achieved although it is not clear if this was because commencement was delayed or that production figures were lower.

If the delivery had been on schedule, all 6000 would have been delivered by January 1945 but the records show an amendment dated 26/3/45 - "All remaining to be made suitable for the tropics' - Unfortunately, they don't say how many were still remaining. However, there is a final note dated 29/5/1945 instructing termination at 4600 and the last of these seems to have arived on 12th June.

It would seem reasonable to assume that W90347 was delivered sometime between August 1944 and March 1945 with the earlier date probably more likely.

Hello Rik

Thank you very much for your information.
I have one more question, is it possible that in time of second war norton 16h engines were repaired and they were given new numbers?

greetings Tomek

Tomek,

It's dificult to say exactly. We know that early in the war, spare engines were given a number beginning 'AS' but later on this seems to have been discontinued and they were delivered unstamped. These engines often appear to have been stamped with the number of the unit that they replaced, sometimes without the 'W' prefix.

Workshop numbers were sometimes stamped on but there doesn't seem to have been any pressure during the war to re-stamp a number, they simply left the old one. I have the impression that some of the post-war workshops did that but I don't know why. Most re-stamped numbers though seem to have been done by private owners and dealers to make the motorcycle match the paperwork that they had.

If you have any particular numbers that you're not sure about, you can mail them to me and I'll happily compare them with my file of original number stampings

email (option): 79x100@gmail.com