I've read the old posts, checked everything I can think of, but I'm still wet sumping quite a bit after just a few days of sitting. Here's what I know:

Ball valve A is correct size, seems to be seating well, if anything maybe the spring pressure seems a little excessive. I obviously can't verify that the ball is seating correctly after running (without removing the bolt and spring, and thus moving the ball), so maybe it's not finding it's way back to it's seat for some reason? Hard to confirm.

Ball valve C seems to be functioning correctly also. Oil flow is good. Ball was not sticking in the up position.

Any ideas on troubleshooting? I was thinking I could remove the sump plate, attach a small hose to valve C, and see how much oil comes through the valve/hose versus just gravity flow through the engine (and maybe valve A)?

I'm running straight 40 oil, so not too thin either. Help!

Take your sump plate off and check the tighteness of the oilpump studs. A10's have a similar problem.If the oilpump isn't tight againts it's housing then oil can leak past the gasket.Don't overtighten though, or you will be in more trouble!

email (option): wariron@tpg.com.au

Thanks Douglas, good suggestion.

Anyone know more about the anti-sumping valves Tim mentioned on another post? Where to buy, and effectiveness?

Craig

Craig,
Just a thought, is the ball in valve A a new ball? I'd found that someone had fitted a used ball from a head bearing or some such and was well out of round. fixed with reseating a new ball.

email (option): spacemonkeym@gmail.com

Hi Craig,

I have been using an automatic valve for 5 years with great success.
The bike can stand still for as long as you like,
And not a drop of oil in the sump.

You can find one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/dsc/i.html?LH_TitleDesc=1&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=anti+wet+bsa+-motul+-how+-grease+-4&_odkw=anti+wet+bsa+-motul+-how+-grease&_osacat=0

For one WM20 I use the stainless type, of “BSA Unlimited” which inserted in the middle of the engine feed oil line,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLASSIC-S-like-BSA-NORTON-VELO-TRI-AJAY-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-STAINLESS-/390517837411?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item5aecad4e63

And for another WM20 I use a similar type which I do not see now on EBay, which is threaded to screws directly into the sump and replaces the original adapter.

You can also use unidirectional valve from a diesel line of a car, which should do the same and is usually cheaper, but I did not try it, and I saw many people who simply installed a ball tap
To the oil tank, on the oil exit line, but I know that if I do so, I am most likely to forget it closed and burn the engine,
Or spend 90% of the riding time making sure that it is opened…

From my experience, if nothing helps, and you do not want to use the automatic valve, try another timing cover, if you have.
I had some very good ones, and some hopeless ones..

And a silly question: you do insert the ball into the cover first, and the spring second, right?..

Good luck,
Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Hi,

This the direct type, which goes into the sump.
I found a spare one I have.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

My view of these things hasn't changed in the least...I still think it is a bad idea to put anything into the feed side of the oil supply which could malfunction and cause a major engine failure...The timing cover anti drain valve is on the downside of the pump and pump pressure, which is potentially substantial when pumping against a 'blind' gallery, pushes the ball off its seat against spring pressure.(at about 7 psi)
On the feed side to the pump the operation of the valve relies on the amount of suction developed by the pump...a far less certain arrangement in my opinion and limited in its capacity to overcome anything that detrimentally affects the free operation of the valve. I also think that at 70 years old and with varying degrees of wear the capacity of many pumps in this regard must be quite variable. On that basis alone, never mind the supposed suitability of these valves for many models and makes, I can't see that a 'one size fits all' valve would be ideal. My own personal experience of the total failure of a Norton Commando engine within 25 miles of fitting one of these valves appears to bear that out....
I think the last paragraph in those photos says it all when translated...'I'll sell you a valve which I say is OK, but if you fit it your on your own'...'Oh, and check that it actually works if you do fit it'.....Didn't they just say it was precision made (whatever that means) and TESTED?....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm going to take the plate off again and check the pump mounting studs. Never checked those before. If they're already tight, I think I have to try a return line valve (until I have the need to replace the pump later on). I agree a supply side valve is a bad idea. Not worth the risk. A good return line seems pretty low-risk though.

FYI, ball valve A is a new ball and spring. And yes the ball is in the seat, then the spring behind it. Punched the ball too to help make sure it's seated well. Breather valve is also working well. This sumping issue only started about a year ago, and after replacing the "A" ball and spring (no change), I went to check ball valve "C" (was working fine), at which point I snapped two studs re-attaching the plate. Ooops. Now that everything is all sorted, I was disappointed to find it is sill wet sumping. So, I'll check the pump mounts. After that, it seems like a pump repair or replacement is in order at some point (or timing cover, though I don't think that's the issue).

For what it's worth, the pump still seems to be pushing oil well. Lots of return flow into the tank.

Thanks
Craig

Hi Craig...You won't benefit from fitting a valve to the return line as the oil that gets into the engine only comes down the feed line.
If you haven't done so already it is worth taking the pump out of the engine to check the pump to crankcase gasket and faces and that the pump is not tight to turn. It should turn freely by hand...Stripping the pump will enable you to check the condition of the ball and seat in the base plate of the pump, rather than just ascertaining that the ball is moving..Another way to treat the problem is to fit a manually operated valve into the feed line but rig it so that it earths the spark when closed...that way it is impossible to start the bike without opening the oil valve....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Is that right? I figured a faulty ball valve C would also allow flow from the return line back into the case. What keeps that from happening?

Haven't removed the pump yet. Sounds like a PITA to do correctly so I'm saving that for the last resort. I might be getting there though.

Good suggestion on grounding the plug with the valve. That'd be a little safer at least. Or, maybe I should really simplify things and just route the breather into the oil tank! That'd be interesting.

Hi Craig..The only oil in the return side is the small amount in the pipe back to the oiltank..a negligible amount which would be cleared in moments even if it did run back into the crankcase...The entire contents of the tank can drop down the feed line...Ian.

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Ahhhh, good point! I forgot the oil return daylights at the top of that riser where the filter usually sits in the tank, not at the bottom of the tank.

That reminds me though that I can at least easily check how much is staying in the return line by how long it takes manually turning over the engine to get oil to showup back at the top of the return line. That might tell me if I am losing any through the return, even if it's insignificant.

Seems like pump and or pump gasket issues are the likely culprit. Thanks for the troubleshooting help!

Hi Ian,

I admit that I always worry regarding the oil circulation with this valve,
And got use to check the spit back to oil tank when starting the bike,
And usually on a traffic-light or two on the way.

The problem is that I do not use the bike allot, and when I was starting it,
Much like in Craig’s case- it was a disaster..

I do have NOS timing cover I can check to see if is better.
I would gladly replace the automatic valve with a tap on the oil tank,
But the problem is that on M20, at least when using the mag and not electronic sparking system,
There is no way to immobilize the bike by disabling the spark or link it to a tap operation.
And I know on quite a few cases of engines destroyed due to riders forget to open an oil tap.
(Usually you can see on these bikes big warning on the damper knob or on fuel tank “OPEN OIL TAP”


Is there a way to disable the spark other than to shot-wire the HT lead to the body? (and then risk damaging the mag due to internal sparking..)

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com