Can anyone help identify this Norton paint scheme? Also, this one doesn't appear to have the correct Norton rear rack, unless 1939 predates the introduction of the more well-known rack.



Thanks much,

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

Hi Mark,
Did you buy this bike? I followed it when it was on E-Bay in 2006.
Unless you are 'Steve' you can e-mail Rob from www.wdnorton.nl as this particular bike is on his website.
I personally think this colour scheme was made up by someone and isn't ww 2 related, just as the home made racks.

Regards,
Sven

email (option): snvosselman@gmail.com

That is Caunter Scheme. It looks a bit strange but I like it.

Henk

email (option): ahum@quicknet.nl

We have seen this scheme on a restored motorcycle before, but in the normal tri colour. I wasn't sure that green was used in this scheme. Normally it was Greys, Blues and stone colour. But Mike Starmer says this in his report for Middle East. Ron


1940 - 1941 - By mid to late 1940 many newly arrived vehicles and tanks appear to be painted a plain overall colour, BS. 52 Pale Cream is cited for the 6 RTR new A9 cruisers, whilst the more normal colours seem to have been Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64. However about November 1940 a new scheme was specified in G.O 297. This scheme comprised the tri-coloured disruptive designs now known as ‘Caunter Scheme’. Very many AFVs and softskins carried this scheme of Portland Stone No.64 basic with Silver Grey No. 28 and Slate No.34 or Khaki Green No. 3 in angular disruptive stripes. Period G.Os specify Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64 at various times and a local variation may have substituted a mixed light blue-grey for Silver Grey No. 28. A scheme for use in the Sudan specified Light Stone No.61 with Light Purple Brown No.49 in patches or stripes. A variation of Caunter was applied for use in Greece during 1941. This has the areas normally painted Silver Grey 28 to be either Light Purple Brown or Slate 34 and the remainder Light Stone No.61. The actual pattern deviated in detail from an exact replication of the drawings so perusal of photographs is recommended here.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

The photo that Ron has posted seems to be the only one existing of a 'Caunter' scheme motorcycle. It shows men of a 7th Australian Division provost unit training for winter warfare in the mountains of Syria.

The machine shown here is actually on Rob's website noted as W94477 and was restored by Dave Wolfe in Australia. I believe that it was sold some years back to finance a Big 4 project.

The pannier frames appear to be mounted without the carrier and the census number has been copied from the photograph and doesn't relate to the actual frame number.

The bike is actually one of the last WD16Hs made - from the curtailed S5161 contract. It was probably produced in around June 1945 and was originally C5488877. This contract card was marked as 'machines to be suitable for the tropics'. It may have been sent to an Australian unit or perhaps reached there via India where many of these late machines were sent. If Rob can put you in touch with the restorer, he may be able to tell you more.

Not absolutely clear whether this is meant to be a Caunter scheme. There does appear to be the light coloured paint on the rear mudguard and front rim.....and here's another restored bike in that finish...I quite like it...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

What do we know about the Arabic script on the tank of the Norton combination? I've seen several other photos of various bikes showing this and I know it's the cencus number in Arabic, but when did they start doing it and how widespread was it?

I presume it was so local police officers in Egypt, Palestine ect who didn't speak or read English could record accidents.

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Thanks all for the info... a veritable fountain of knowledge. I love this forum...

No, I didn't buy this bike. It is on the auction list at the upcoming January Midamerica Auctions in Las Vegas, along with 4 WM-20s. I can't decide if I like the scheme or not, certainly is unusual.

There is another 16H on the docket at Bonhans Grand Palais auction coming up in February; does anyone know this motorbike? Here's the link:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20924/lot/463/?search_query=1&division=None&passages=True&earliest_first=False&country=None&past_sales=future&back_to_year=2003&sale_no=None&top_level_department=None&department=None&query=norton+16H&create_facets=True&value_data_currency=GBP

Happy New Year to everyone....

Mark

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

I think it looks really good, very different from what we usually see and great that it is correct.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Hi Horror...The trouble is it's a nightmare trying to keep that desert colour clean...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I really like this scheme and I'm very tempted to do my M20 in Caunter at its impending pre "D-Day 70th" "tart up".

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Nice one Ian, that's a camo scheme I approve of, just how they are supposed to look, covered in mud and used, not cosseted in an air conditioned garage!

That is a nice machine at Bonhams (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20924/lot/463).

This time they made a slightly more accurate description of the bike than the one John spotted (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20924/lot/427/) although what they show is inconsistent with the engine rebuilt plate on the valve cover.
It would have been more accurate to delete this rebuilt 1955 REME addition.
That would not have happened if the bike was indeed civilianised in 1947!

I would regard the given history with great apprehension.

Its a nice, nearly complete example of a late production 16H, where the "civilian 1938" advertised by Bonhams has been converted to look like a pre war civilian bike but lacking the correct details. Non-Norton rear carrier and non civilian field stand! Late production oiltank, 6"headlamp etc.

On the Caunter paint scheme's, I basically follow the descriptions of Michael Starmer.
Although (or maybe more because) he comes from the moddeling scene he has done loads of research and gives actual references to his sources. A much neglected aspect in the historic scene.
I do have my doubts about the use of the Caunter scheme on late producton bikes though. The fighting in the desert was basically over when they were made.
Contemporary pictures showing the scheme are all on early (around 1940)production Nortons.

Best wishes for 2013

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your thoughts on the Paris Bonhams 16H. What did you mean about regarding the given history with great apprehension? I assume you mean the restoration/rebuilt history done in Greece and is good running order?

I agree with you about the Chaunter scheme. It's an interesting look, though I think it would look best after having been weathered a good 2 years in the desert! Not sure it's the color scheme for me.

Am still considering the G3WO as well....

Here's the 16H I foolishly sold many years back... now in a private museum in Seattle.



Very best wishes to you for 2013 as well!

Mark

email (option): wingco40@hotmail.com

Hello Mark,

Its Rob not Ron :-)

What I meant is that unless there is an original sort of paper stating the purchase of this particular machine in 1947 or a licence document showing the year it did get a civilian licence number its all hearsay or fantasy.
The engine has a REME rebuilt plate of 1955 so there are several possibilities: it is an engine that was added to the bike as an replacement after release from the forces (not stated by Bonhams), or the tappet cover is a later addition to the engine, or they added the REME plate as sort of "nice" to the tappet cover, or this engine/frame combination did come out of service, however not in 1947 but after 1955. I doubt REME would have serviced a civilian machine!
As Bonhams also state that there is no accompanying paperwork, I regard its history as "unclear" and tend to regard it as fantasy in order to raise the price.

I cannot say anything on the quality of the bike. It looks quite well and complete and could very well have been reconditioned in a proper way.

I should add another remark to the "knowledge" of Mike Starmer. There has of course been great differences between the official guidelines and the actual practice of use of paint and as such I guess we will never know exactly what is correct or not unless more information surfaces.

The bike you sold looks quite well although it hurts my eyes to see those round knee rubbers on the petrol tank. It would look better without them.
Based on the parts I see it looks to be a "rebuilt" but certainly nicely done.
Do you still have engine and frame numbers and/or some more pictures?

Cheers,

Rob

email (option): wd16h@telfort.nl