Don't know if this info has already been posted before?

If the have rusty nuts it could be of interest!

Penetrating Oils

Machinist's Workshop magazine published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting.

Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.

They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist.

They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a

"scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix............53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone.

Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results.
Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil"
for about 20% of the price.

Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.

*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid"

email (option): damian153@hotmail.co.uk

Tried it, but the two would not mix

email (option): viaconsu [at] planet [dot] nl

this might help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4xsqw463Hs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YO_snrzYrs

email (option): roger.beck@node6.com

Under many other brands as well.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=0607066

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

What happened to plus gas that used to be good did they ban it

email (option): cooperbaumber@yahoo.com

They're all snake oil. Only heat can release a rust welded nut or bolt.No way will snake oil penetrate to the root core of a thread.45 years experience.

Are you talking about using a blowtorch?

I've only just got my M20, there's a good chance this could all end in tears

email (option): damian153@hotmail.co.uk

If you don't have an oxy kit get a propane torch.

To remove the 4 small 1/4" studs of the scavenge cover I tried all the tricks of the trade: heating the alloy around the stud with a small propane torch and cooling the stud with an ice cube, penetrating oil, repeating the process several times, all the while trying to unscrew the stud using the two-nuts method. No way, and I'm afraid to apply too much force and break the stud, necessitating expensive spark-erosion to remove the remains.
So, any suggestions...

email (option): viaconsu [at] planet [dot] nl

Hans it's very easy to strip the threads in the crankcase for these studs. If yours are fixed that well and if the exposed threads are not damaged, I'd leave them alone. But If I had to remove them, I'd play a gas torch on the studs until they are very hot or just start going red. Let them cool for a minute then they will usually undo very easily. I have removed dozens of siezed engine head studs by the same means. It seems wrong to heat and expand the part you want to remove, but it's all to do with heat transfer and breaking the bond. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

I use a heat gun how [most times anyway]they are cheap and there is no naked flame,great for removing case bearings,nuts,applying heat shrink on electric wire,etc

To remove studs the old method of a couple of sharp wack`s on the head of the stud with a hammer often does the trick

And when the stud breaks, don't bother trying to drill it out! If you aren't 100% sure you can get it out please just take it to an engineer to get it removed, possibly as much as 5% of my work consists of trying to remove broken drills/stud extractors and suchlike from broken studs! A £10 repair can easily become a £50 repair if you don't know what you are doing. A blowlamp will not usually put enough heat into a big casting to make a difference the only real way at home to get the heat in there is to wait until your wife is out and put the offending casting into the oven, sprial stud extractors are useless as they tend to push out the remains so the thread actually tightens. I tend to use the square type tapered ones as they lose their grip before they will shear off. I find that a good clout with the hammer and heat is usually my first line of approach, then if anything is still remaining above the gasket face if and that hasn't moved it I try to weld a nut on to the top of the stud and leave it for about 30 seconds before trying to undo it. If broken off flush I try to carefully drill the hole freehand which means that it is easier to find the centre as I can angle the drill bit around until I am happy with it's centring, then drill it through until it breaks out of the other side, sometimes this is enough when I put the extactor in it as the stud can be so tightly "bottomed out" that by drilling all the way through it it can remove the metal that has bottomed it out. If it has broken below the surface I use a drill of the threads tapping size, for example I will use a 3/16" drill on a 1/4" unc thread (it's tapping size) and I only use this size to put a dimple to act as a centring hole and then I switch to a smaller drill (usually the size that I would use for the suitable sized extractor) and then drill it through to the bottom with this size and use the stud extractor to remove it.
My main advice is that if you aren't sure just leave it to someone who can sort it out!

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

There is a lot of sense in Daves comments...If you don't have the skills and importantly the right equipment you can soon do more damage than good. I recently had to do one where two failed attempts at drilling out a stud had gone in at an angle and removed a load of material that needed to be there and left half the stud still in place..In that case I had to cut the whole lot away with a carbide cutter in a die grinder, weld up the resulting hole and start all over again with a new hole for the stud....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

If you break off the stud and you need to drill it out you can buy drills which drill opposite to normal,these work well as most of the time they will spin the stud out while drilling out the centre of the stud, start small then go to larger size drills

Of cause you need to use a drill with reverse for the left handed drills

Thanks for all the sound advice so far.

I already sense I'm going to have bother with my M20. It hasn't seen a wrench for years. Because I'm a novice in vintage motorcycle restoration in going a mixture of penetration oil, heat gun and couple of sharp wacks with the persuader see if this does the trick first.

If I'm going to use the oven approach I'm going to need an industrial one, to get the whole thing in.

So why Do people always refer to a winter project?

May be the winter isn't the best time of the year to work on a project!

email (option): damian153@hotmail.co.uk

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your tips. You can also use your welding trick on the studs which are broken flush or below the gasket surface. Just built it up with small mig welds until you can grab it or than weld a nut or piece of strip on it. Worth trying, works for me all the time with never any damage to the castings so I hope never have to drill them out again.....

I agree with Ron that it is the heating of the studs (by the migwelds in this case) which probably do the trick.

Regards, Michiel

email (option): m.wijbenga@hotmail.com

I am a big fan of left handed drills , left handed taps and Dremel tools with a diamond burr.
A large time the heat generated in drilling will cause the offending fastener to spin out.
Failing that the left hand tap in a cordless drill on the ratchet sein works wonders.
If even that fails then it is out with the big illuminated magnifier an the long dremel bit slowly grinding out all o fhe faster till nothing is left but the spiral of thread in the hole which you can pull out with a pair of tweezers.

One word of warning with this method.
You will generate a lot a very sharp metal splinters so care is parramount and saftey glasses a must

email (option): wariron@tpg.com.au

Some good advice given. Reading through all the tips, may I add my two pence worth?
Trevor’s tips are really worth considering, but not for anyone in a hurry. Once you shear a stud, you should not be in a hurry anyway. If you need to drill, do whatever it takes to centre the drill. On penetrating oils, time improves the effectiveness of any penetrant. Dunking a bad case in diesel for a week or two will also help.

email (option): pvlietstra@gmail.com

I would be very leery of using heat for this purpose, lest it weaken the part that you will be re-using or warping it (e.g. the head). Also, some parts are not easy to heat to red-hot. Penetrating oil works fine if you let it work. There are several versions of Liquid Wrench, some work better than others. In one instance I had to soak a head bolt of an M20 for two weeks before it gave up. I built a "castle" around the bolt head to retain the liquid in contact with the bolt and the joint. After a couple of weeks of trying it finally gave and it was clear that the oil had penetrated all the way down to the threads of this 50-year old connection.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Just another idea, an air impact driver will take off things that would shear off under a gradual steady torque. Otherwise patience and try again later after more soaking. A rep for I think Metaltech demo'ed a releasing oil for a blacksmith I know, two doses half an hour apart freed off a big metal shear that had been rusting in a field for 30 plus years.

Cheers Pat

I had a primery sprocket retaing nut that had been Loctited on--- I just could not move it with-- even with three feet of leverage.
I used an air ratchet and could believe how easily it turned off with that.

A compressor and air ratchet is definatly worth adding to the workshop

There are a lot of cordless/battery impact drivers (down the tyre centre as well) anybody tried one ?

Cheers Pat

Hi, the Snap on Mac tools and DeWalt ones are very good, but a lot of the cheaper types are rubbish, you basically get what you pay for, expect to pay at least £200 for one that is worth it's salt. The air ones are cheaper but again you get what you pay for, about £200 and up for anything that will last

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

This issue has been addressed before and I responded & got laughed at but I do restoration on antique firearms and I use low heat and bees wax to get screws undone that have been tightened for a hundred years or so. You don`t have to get things very hot (I use a propane torch) then touch the bees wax to the screw the heat will cause it to chase the threads. It really works!

email (option): teladelujo@msn.com

This is the use of heat for a different purpose, i.e., melting the wax and letting it flow down the threads before re-solidifying. It seems that it would need at least some clearance between threads in order to work, and I wonder if it would work on "upside down" threads, e.g., when the wax is applied at the bottom of the connection and then be expected to work itself against gravity, probably by wicking. It seems to be a method more akin to penetrating oil.

Usually heat is used for a different purpose, to expand the outer part of the connection, usually the female part. In those cases it is not actually the heat that matters, as much as the difference in temperature between the two parts. You want the female part (nut) to be as hot as possible, so that it expands, and the male part (bolt) as cool as you can get it, so that it shrinks, and the difference will loosen the connection. I've seen situations where the nut was heated to red hot or white hot and then dry ice applied to the bolt in order to cool it, thereby maximizing the temperature difference - and therefore the clearance or "looseness" - between the two parts. (I don't know if the terminology is the same on the other side of the pond: dry ice is solid carbon dioxide, which is much colder than water ice.)

PS, I'm not saying I recommend this method, it seems more of a last resort, in view of the stresses that the parts will undergo.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

There seems to be a slight double standard going on here! A few weeks back on the topic of black phosphating nuts and bolts people seemed to be bemoaning about the use of heat on nuts and bolts to colour them saying it would affect their properties, now everyone is reaching for the gas axe to remove stubborn nuts and bolts on ones they want to keep! I only use heat to remove a nut and bolt that is too far gone and that has defied normal methods to remove it and once the nut is off I have no intention of reusing it. To heat a bolt that is under pressure to red hot will distort its threads unlike when phosphating the gentle application of heat will to some degree normalise or reduce the internal stresses. Remember heat should really only be used as a last resort on a nut/bolt that will be replaced.

email (option): davmax@ntlworld.com

Actually, not a double standard but two separate camps, those who appear to have no concern with heating and those who do. In the thread you mention about coloring nuts and bolts I warned about the ill effects of heating and have done the same here (see my post of Dec. 18, above). But it looks like the number of those who are not concerned is far greater. Different strokes . . .

Anyway, none of this will make any difference, since the world will end tomorrow!

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

My comments regarding heating studs or nuts are purely in an endeavour to remove them. They would then be thrown in a bucket of water before the bin. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com