Dear Fellow Sufferers,
I'm at my wits end...
First of all after many years of wanting an M20 I finally get hold of my dream, a seemingly good little number,1939 model with matching frame & number, lots of original hard-to-find bits and just been rebuilt so she should be a beaut right? OK so there's no wiring loom but the vendor will pop it in the post and it'll be with me soon enough...
After a significant outlay of money and a long drive I finally get gthe beast back to dear old Devon and, after some hardship and "learning the ropes" I manage to start it. I'm not mechanically stupid and have dabbled in engines since I was a nipper so pretty soon I'm starting to get the hang of it and sometimes even manage to start it within the first 5 minutes!
OK, I know, it's just been rebuilt and it has an M21 crank so fat compression and some extra cubes don't make life easy - but I persist.
Then something changes, starting gets harder and harder until it just won't even fire. Afetr hours of kicking (thinking it was just me)I check timing and gaps and have a chat with "Guru"Ian who says the simple words - Have you checked the plug? I check the plug - sporadic infrequent spark. I swap the plug for a new spare of my 1943 GMC truck... vroom! yay! I am exonerated, I'm not useless it was just the plug breaking down... these things happen, I buy a new plug. Whilst this is going on I am still awaiting the wiring loom which I am assured by the vendor is on its way (As I write now this still has not arrived...)
Then follows a few weeks of relatively happy motoring with mixed but usual success at starting until now.
It seems the same thing is happening - I get an occasional kick back and that's about it. Then the valve lifter cable breaks so I kick the thing and walk away muttering obsceneties and wondering about that Honda Trans Alp after all - do I finally give the thing up as a bad job and sell out to the land of the setting sun? is this the end of the M20 dream. Or am I just tired and emotional? After all these things are so simple there just can't be much wrong with it can there?
So my friends, do any of you know why this crotchety old warhorse (I'm not referring to you Ian!)would eat plugs? I'm on my knees here and the Trans Alp is beckoning...!

email (option): Kimble.west@bridgezoneltd.co.uk

Hi,

probably too rich carb mix and/or too weak magneto / capacitor.
I would also check magneto picup and ground brushes and check or replace high-tension cable.

Do you have the correct spark-plug and correct model?
You mentioned M21 engine, so you would need a long-reach spark-plug for alloy head,
And a short-reach for iron head.


Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Kimble I wouldn't bother waiting for a wiring loom. Just buy 6-7 metres of black braided cable from one of the classic cable company's. They are so easy to wire up by just following the wiring diagram in the manual.

Your starting issues need further investigation, but if you have full compression I would start by getting the mag checked out.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Thanks Guys,
When it DOES start it starts again hot no problem so I gather that means the mag is ok. I use a B6HS plug (as recommended by Draganfly). I have leaned off the mixture as the original plug was black so I may try re-adjsuting the carb pin back to it's original position. The thing is it was starting fine even after I'd leaned off the mixture...
Another issue is that whenI start it after it's been sat for a while I get ALOT of oil smoke for a few minutes - is that normal?
Ron I gather Lex is coming over. It may be good to meet up with him as he built it and see what he says. Call me on 07967 741409 if it would be convenient to meet.
Really appreciate the tips! I'll keep y'all posted on progress.
Ta

email (option): Kimble.west@bridgezoneltd.co.uk

Hi guys,

Must stress that I never rebuild the engine, or the bike! only got it to run, and attached cables, lights etc. etc.

But when I see Ron, we'll phone you.

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Ah Kimble, it sounds like it's wet sumping? Accurately measure the oil level in your oil tank after you have properly run the bike. Then again a few days later when you come to restart it. If the oil is bypassing into the sump then it can certainly effect starting.

There is a drain plug underneath. You can drain the sump into a clean ice cream tub and poor it back into the tank. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Thanks Ron,
Something else to look for. But if it IS "wet sumping" how do I cure it?
Today's discoveries are:
1. Jammed advance retard cable but no difference in starting when freed.
2. Chain removable link retainer clip missing (that would've been fun if the chain had whipped off!)
3. Stripped threads on throttle ferrules, tank bolts and advance retard bracket.
I'm beginning to rue the day I bought this thing and may ask some expert advice on the overall build quality and mechanical integrity of it. I'm a little pissed off to be honest as I spent alot of hard earned dosh on it in the belief that it had been lovingly rebuilt. Something sure doesn't add up and if I don't get some answers soon I shall start getting seriously grumpy! would very much welcome it if you and Lex could taker a look at it and see what you think so do please call me when he gets here, ta

email (option): Kimble.west@bridgezoneltd.co.uk

Hi Kimble..The terms 'rebuilt/restored', sadly, cover everything from a perfect museum standard professional restoration to something like the Royal Enfield 'Bad Ass Bar Hopper' recently commented on here on the forum...and everything in between.
The truth is the number of good quality, thorough and competently carried out restorations are distinctly in the minority in my opinion...I hate to say it but if I was looking at a bike that was for sale as 'restored' but didn't have any wiring, that would immediately set the alarm bells ringing..after all.. shouldn't it be finished completely before being put on the market as 'restored'?.
This shows a lack of determination to do the job properly and fully and is indicative that that philosophy might have been applied to the remainder..
The various faults and omissions you list confirm that I would say..A bike that has just been carefully built up wouldn't have spring clips missing, stripped threads and jammed cables....period.
If you want to keep it you now really need to stop thinking of it as a fully rebuilt bike and enter a process of going over it, checking everything and rectifying any faults you find...you will then end up with a serviceable machine...
I know that's not how it's supposed to work but you have to put it down to experience and just press on if you want to do it...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

I agree with Ian and I expect most of us have been in your position. In fact I never buy a bike without the intention to re-restore it, or at least some serious checking and maintenance. A fresh restoration is not always the best way to go as the bike hasn't been proved and fettled, which they all need.
If basically you like the bike, forget about retribution and just get on with putting your own stamp on it an make it how you want it.

I didn't offer any advice regarding the wet sumping until you had verified it.
But a very simple trick is :- On the bottom of the timing cover is a little plug. Behind this plug should be a small ball and spring. Make sure it's clear of crud, and give the ball a light tap with a small punch to make sure it has a good seat in the ally. You can buy a new ball and spring from someone like Draganfly or C&D Autos for penny's if you want.

Just keep us informed as you go (pictures are good) There is always advice.

Ron

PS. make sure the sliding cam plate behind the points is swivelling freely with the lever. They sometimes stick (As I have found, nursing a bruised ankle). A little tap with a screwdriver and a squirt of WD40 is all that's required.

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Hi Kimble, Stick with it, I was in your position 18 months ago and didn't even get to ride my "reputable Dealer supplied with new MOT" bike before having to rebuild the engine and sort a load of odd bodge ups. If it's as cobbled together as it sounds then it needs a rebuild, but it's better doing it first as last. When it's done it will do another 20 years or more and you not Lex will have ensured its survival and have the pleasure of riding it. As for the disemboweling and boiling oil side of it the proverb, He who does not forgive digs two graves , is the way forward.

Cheers Pat

Hi Guys,
Thank you all for your sage advice, very much appreciated. I think I was already coming to the realisation that a "root and branch" service/rebuild will be necessary. Luckily these things are so simple that it won't be rocket science (but I will need to do it with my engineers head on so that it is done right)
I don't bear grudges. I am coming to value the M20 "community spirit" evident through this forum and would not want to do anything to spoil it. I am not sitting here fuming with indignation, I tend more often to have a bit of a chuckle and a wry grin at my shenanigans with the old warhorse (or Vera as we call her - "We'll start again, don't know where, don't know when, but I know we'll start again some sunny day...")
Ian and Pat - you are so right!
I'll investigate the wet sumping (thanks Ron) and let you all know how I'm getting on
Tally Ho!

email (option): welbike@welbike.net

Does that mean we shouldn't call it 'Lex's bike' any more? .. ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

"I don't know nothing about it and he don't live here anymore". Methinks he doth protest too much !

Cheers Pat

I have to say, if I was Lex, I'd be a bit concerned as well. I don't know the details of the case but it was clearly stated in an earlier post that Lex 'built ' the bike and implied that he should be able to sort out the problems.

Many of us have helped others 'get a bike going' in the past, with varying degrees of success and what the owners do afterwards is up to them (generally, they ignore any advice).

Lex is a perfectionist in my experience and generous with his help and advice. It might not be a bad idea if Kimble were to clear the air by confirming the circumstances of his purchase.

As was mentioned previously, the lack of a loom would normally be a major warning sign. It's about an hours work on one of these bikes (and about £20 worth of materials) so its absence usually indicates a duff dynamo and /or CVC.

I totally agree with Rik here. I have also been in this situation, where I did some finishing up work last year for a guy who was selling some bikes. I told him I didn't want my name attached to these bikes as I didn't have a hand in their restoration.....Of course he ignored my request.
The sarcasm and innuendo's aimed at Lex are not justified......or perhaps I proteth toeth muchas also Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

hey,i saw lex at stamford,he had a pair of glasses on as a disguise and was trying to work a fake bronze villiers carb off a lawn - mower on to job,and i thought he was a real nice guy,the accent gave it away,you have to watch out for these types,
no offence lex nice to meet you
cheers rick

email (option): richardholt@rocketmail.com

I think I have to clean some air here! The particular bike here has Kimble bought from me! Kimble has make a advertise here on the forum just before I left to Beltring, it was not the meaning that time to sell it because it was not ready ad the time. When I spoke to Kimble I told him that the bike was almost ready only the wiring was not in it and it has run only 5 or 6 miles perfect even starts perfect !! The bike was actually for my sun bud we bought a other project so this one was going to go in the future! Kimble say yes on it so I take it to Beltring He has seen the bike and all was OK only the
sealing of the tank had some problem for that Kimble say to me a lower price and we ( Kimble and me )are agree with it!
I have done the following things on the bike:

The complete iron parts frame, mudguards, wheels,carrier etc are all sandblasted and painted

The Engine is rebuild by FTR Classics that also inspected the Gearbox. see: http://www.ftr-classic-motorsports.nl

The Magneto and Dynamo are rebuild by Johan Geerthuis ask Lex ore see: http://thematchlessshop.nl/index.php/nl/lucas

All bearings are cleaned and inspected even the brake linings .

So the only thing wath we see in Beltring was the inner site of the Tank! Did he clean the carb? maybe there is some dirt in it???

Abouth Lex the following: I put everiting together the parts that Lex have done are the primary case, cables timing and aoverall inspection.

When Kimble was visit me in Beltring he ask me how to start it because he didn't know how, I explane it deal closed!

So I will say the bike must be in good conditioning Kimble knows were he started with, and it can only be a small problem and NO it was not Lex who sell it!!

regards,

Bram

email (option): bram@ockhuizen.com

Kimble, without complicating this anymore I would advise you to persevere with your bike and problems as its strange to say but its a time of bonding with the machine and understanding its individual traits, although perhaps at this time it doesnt seem like that. I was in the same predicament when building my G3L and wondered what pile of s**t I'd bought but now I can honestly say that both my M20 and G3L give greater pleasure in owning than any other licence bending bike I have had. Keep with it it will be worth it in the end

Pete

email (option): cruaser@aol.com

Hi Y'all,
A quick update for those who are interested.
Wiring loom has arrived (Yay!) - thanks Bram, it looks like it may have been opened by customs/security spooks (all those scary wires I guess!) which would explain the delay but it doesn't fully conform to the correct colour code and has many extra wires. It may well have been easier to purchase a few metres (sorry - yards!)of simple black wire and simply put on identifying terminations for each circuit a la Mr Wright (this would also avoid any unpleasant aesthetic issues with all the bright colours) - but hey, it's here and I can plumb it in now.
I removed the non return valve spring and ball that we suspect may be the cause of the wet-sumping issue and the wee (1/4") ball is badly pitted in one area (this may explain the fact that it wasn't wet sumping for a while when I first got it - I guess the ball had rotated so the the pitted section was against the seal). A replacement ball and spring is now winging it's way to me from Draganfly.
I'm doing my Direct Access Course next week so in between I'll be tinkering!
watch this space.
K

email (option): Kimble.west@bridgezoneltd.co.uk

Well well - Progress, and an interesting phenomenon.
Following a long 'blue arsed fly' period of not being able to work on the old warhorse I finally set too and went through the basics:
1. Check & adjust points & timing - done.
2. Strip down and clean Mag dyno - done
3. Strip down and clean carb - done
4. Check & adjust tappets - done
Still do no avail
So on Saturday I called Rob Miller and asked to have a close look & fiddle with his M20 so that I have something to compare my heap to. Despite the fact that Rob's machine has a 720cc engine (against my 600)I still found the kick over and starting VASTLY easier than mine - the main difference being the ease with which the engine turns over.
I went straight home and removed the primary chain to see if the 'tightness' was in the engine or the gearbox - it was definately the engine.
On removing the head I found a pool of oil in the top of the piston, so, the problem was still oil contamination and wet sumping (as suggested by Ron a few weeks ago). Now I had checked both oil non return valves (and replaced one) so I knew they were ok. I decided to check the whole oil circulatory system and what did I find? A VERY blocked oil tank breather pipe (I put a fuel hose on the bottom and tried to blow through it). It was absolutely solid and after a long and fiddly process small bits of wood and other general detritus were extracted and the pipe cleared.
On reassembly the old girl burst enthusiastically into life on the 3rd kick (kicks 1 and 2 serving to get the fuel back into place after a strip down).
So that was it - an over pressurised oil system due to a blocked breather pipe.
All I need to do know is finish the wiring (nearly done) and I'll be hitting the road. Dogged persistance pays off and thanks for all the "hang in there it'll be fine" messages - you were all right!

email (option): kimble.west@bridgezoneltd.co.uk

Well done

Rob

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Kimble,

Glad you found out something wrong, that was easy to be rectified!!

I only started it once or twice, and it seemed like a good starter, but never rode it or anything like that!

Cheers,

Lex

email (option): welbike@welbike.net