I'm interested to know peoples views on how they perceive the situation regarding the spares that will be required in the future to enable them to continue running their bikes.
Levels of NOS components..themselves a luxury not available to anyone running a civilian model..are rapidly diminishing as a resource and the availability and quality of the replica parts currently available is variable.
I tend to 'stock for the future' when the opportunity arises, buying NOS or good replica parts when they become available..even though I don't need them today. Having owned and used two of my bikes for 30 years or so I have learnt just how much you can wear them out. I focus mainly on the parts that tend to suffer the highest levels of wear or would be impractical to have remanufactured at a later date either due to technical complexity or cost (the two tend to go together) and things that might get badly damaged should I have an accident.
I don't assume, or believe, that parts will always be readily available in the future. If the demand remains good there is always the possibility that any part, however complex, can be reproduced but that will be at an ever increasing cost. That cost will escalate sharply if the quantities needed are low or...dread the thought..if you want a 'one off'.
I think in the current times there is actually more of an inclination to ride the military bikes to places like Normandy etc. than there has been for years and that will lead to the consumption of parts...I fitted a complete NOS clutch to my M20 a number of years back and clearly remember thinking..'well that's the clutch sorted'. Not so..when I rebuild the bike this winter some of those parts will need replacing again.
So, what is the prevailing view?..Is it wise to invest now in your future spares supply?..Do you think that one way or another parts will always be made available when you need them and if so by what mechanism and by who?...Will it be via enthusiasts like Jan or will it require the financial 'clout' of larger manufacturers?(who tend to require 'volume' to justify their investment)..or maybe the Indians will get their act together?...What do you think?....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
It is inevitable that these bikes eventually will only be used "on special occasions" to cut down wear and the expense of repairs. I am terrible for buying and hoarding part that I don't actually need. It is an expensive habit as well. Some parts I've had for so many years I've actually forgotten I've got them until I pull out a box buried in the garage, when looking for something else. Some parts I can't even remember buying.
The trouble with this is I could be buying parts to hoard, that someone needs to get there bike on the road. They then have to pay more for this part, pushing up the price of spares and creating a false demand for parts we don't actually need... yet..!
I think if you're walking around an auto-jumble and see a wear and tear item for your bike that's cheap, buy it, but where do you draw the line? I look at it as I'll have enough to build another bike so end up looking for parts that ends up as another project
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Hi CF, I don't perceive any lack of interest in Vincents..most people would like to own one. The fact is they are way too expensive for the majority. I think a sudden rise in value is also less likely when something is already very expensive.
I do agree that hunting about for parts can be rewarding, or at least finding them...but less so when there aren't any available or if you need one to get a project finished. I spent over two years trying to find the rear stand mounting forgings for my Ariel Square Four and would happily have bought some good replicas if they had been available to get the job finished.
Also once I have gathered up a set of parts and completed my restoration I want to ride it..not spend another year off the road trying to find a replacement for a worn or broken part. Certain parts need to be available if a bike is to be used and in some cases replication is the only solution to that problem. It will never be the case that 'everything is available in good quality off the shelf' for the vast majority of machines..That is the preserve of the owners of a tiny number of 'exotic' machines..Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I think the answer isn't to reject Indian made parts, but to go to India and oversee production and raise standards. Or China. There's no doubt that the far eastern markets CAN make good parts when the proper quality controls are in place. Western labour markets are simply too high.
I vote we send a committee.
email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com
Hi Danny..Stop trying to do me out of a job..
..At various times I have personally had manufactured and brought to the market place battery cases, handlebars, early pattern sump guards, Y Straps, pannier bags, webbing grips, pistons, big ends, valves,rear carriers, mudguard stays, front mudguards,rear stands, steering damper knobs, tank instrument panels etc.etc...and all at affordable prices. These, and more, prove that parts can be manufactured in the UK and meet all the criteria for quality and price.
It is the nature of the game that they can't all be available all the time..there isn't enough demand.
Rather batches can be made at different times to match demand when it builds up.
I think we are too quick to write off UK manufacture as too expensive...but you do have to search to get the quality, price and low quantity all together in one deal....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
think some day you will have to use metric bolts i think i will store my rusty worn bolt for a few year they will be worth a fortune 
email (option): roger.beck@node6.com
Hi Ian, the last thing I want is to do you out of any work. But the fact is, labour costs in the UK are relatively (and I did say relatively) expensive. The stuff you make could, theoretically, be much cheaper from the far east - as we've seen. The problem comes back to quality.
Paradoxically, I think the stuff you sell is very often TOO cheap by any "normal" standard. And yes, it's true that affordable things can still be made in the UK (Land Rovers, Range Rovers, some Triumph motorcycles etc). But there's still the thorny problem of having the right manufacturing equipment available for low volume work. For Classic Bike magazine, I wrote a piece on G&S Valves, in the UK, and was impressed by their operation. There were about twenty stages, or so, in making a valve, all fed through a range of equipment, some of it really sophisticated. But even they had to admit that a lot of their work is development stuff that then gets shipped to China and India for full scale production.
Maybe you could locate to the far east too (say, Clacton) where we could get that elusive compromise between quality and price. It's a lot drier than Devon.
email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine,com
I'm told by an aquaintance who has done some business in China that for low volume customers it's virtually a non starter...Not only do they want to supply in large quantities but the beaurocratic hoops that have to be jumped through to get permission to make anything are a nightmare..and that's before you sort out the 'backhanders' at every level...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Hi Danny...'Better quality' in terms of manufactured parts means investment in better manufacturing facilities, more quality control, more thorough R&D, improved testing, improved materials technology, correct heat treatment, a more highly skilled workforce etc. etc....I'm not sure the part of Indian Industry that caters to the old bike trade is ready for that and if they were it would add a lot of cost.
On top of that you have to get them to do it consistently from thousands of miles away.
Currently they are supplying considerable quantities of low cost, poor quality parts to Western traders who aren't bothered by that, or by the fact that they are going to sell it all on to Joe Public.
It would seem that the buying public..on the whole...are going along with that set up as well. Where is the driver that would make the Indians want to change their strategy?.
Years ago people could buy Hepolite pistons but they chose not to and bought cheaper, inferior, imported pistons. The likes of Hepolite went to the wall trying to sell a better quality product and now we all spend our time looking for NOS Hepolite pistons.
The lesson is don't buy the cheapest you can find..buy the best quality you can afford.
I don't think waiting for the Chinese et al to make good quality yet cheap parts is a good strategy....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Christ, Rik, you really are a cynic. I completely disagree with your comments about low skilled machining. I've done some machining work too in my time, and you can safely leave me to handle a fairly routine job on a lathe; perhaps turning up a spindle or facing off a casting or something. But I'm a long way from skilled. I've used mills in the past, and I can generally machine up a part to suit my needs (when I can get access to the equipment).
I can weld too. I've got MIG and arc here and have done lots of welding on my kit car jeep, but I'm not a skilled welder either. No way. I'm simply up to an acceptable standard and could handle routine production line work.
Back in WW2 Indian technicians and engineers were highly recommended. The RAF loved them. Out in Afghanistan, tribal people knock-up pretty good Kalashnikovs, let down only by poor heat treatment of the steels.
I agree 100% that it's better to pay someone right here in Blighty to build the right parts. But clearly, that hasn't happened yet on a significant scale - with notable exceptions from Ian and Jan and others.
As I said, it needs the right person who can put together the right team; not simply an employed engineer. I already explained that. It needs someone with passion, not a time clock puncher. Ideally, it also needs someone who can speak Indian.
Royal Enfields are made in India. No, they're not as good as the originals, but they're certainly fit for purpose and a long way from sweat shop labour in poor villages. It's not the skills level that's the problem. It's not the facilities. It's not the materials. It's the DRIVE that's missing. Great companies are commonly founded around an individual, and such companies often founder when that individual leaves or dies.
I think Jake told me that he actually made little, or no profit on the first batch of Castle forks (I think there were 6 or 10 sets. I don't know how well the next batch went.
As a footnote, I'm passionate about British manufacturing. I have all of Sump's products made right here instead of the far east where I could cut costs by fifty percent. Or more. I ride a British bike. I ask for British goods in shops (and usually get laughed at). On Saturday, I drove 120 mile round trip so that my other half could buy a couple of British made cups for £25.
But realistically, the far east is the only way to make viable classic bike parts at present (on large a scale). Personally, I'd stick with Ian and Jan, and so on. But the wider market says otherwise.
email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine,com
The largest manufacturer of good quality Triumph parts is right here in Devon..LF Harris limited..and whilst they have parts made in other countries (mainly Europe)a large percentage of their parts are made in the UK, either by other companies or 'in house'. In fact they have just invested £200,000 in new CNC machines at their own factory to enable them to do more of the same. They also produce a variety of BSA components.
To suggest the far east is 'the only way to make viable classic bike parts at present' is entirely incorrect.
In fact just about everything that is worth buying IS made in the UK or Europe...Gold Star engine parts, belt drive kits, oil pumps for a number of machines and a host of other things from big ends to wheel rims.
All the components that I have had produced have been UK produced...
Yes the Indians could probably do it and probably would if someone rolled up with a fat bank balance and a lot of spare time to organise it...but who is that exactly?
In reality the businesses that make up the classic bike scene in the UK are primarily smaller businesses that aren't that well funded.
At the level we are talking about, which is manufacturing some additional parts for bikes which aren't regarded generally by the few 'big players' as money spinners, we are really talking about those small businesses or even individuals like Jan.
I can operate in the UK..dealing with small producers on a small scale to provide a number of hard to find parts...that is what we are talking about unless a rich man on a mission rolls into view...a nice concept but unlikely.
It's all about small scale 'niche' manufacturing working in quantities below 100 for most components with manufacturers already mentally and technically equipped to do the job and who you can liase with directly and easily.. That can be done now, in the UK..Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. I think this is one of those discussions where the back has lost sight of the front.
I did say in my last post "parts on a large scale". Les Harris is in a special position. I'm not suggestion that parts can't be made here. Manifestly, they can. I'm simply responding to the post about future proofing.
The point is that generally speaking, LARGE VOLUME PRODUCTION can't take place here at a price the customer will pay. Of course there are exceptions. There are ALWAYS exceptions. I recently visited Les Emery's operation. He makes complete Commandos and Dominators right here in the UK, and sources the vast majority of components from local factors. But the price is high at around £12,000-£14,000.
A few years earlier, I visited Maughan Engineering and saw how Vincents engines were being built here in the UK (check out Sump for this, and for a piece on Les Emery). But prices are still too high for VOLUME sales. These firms will continue to produce in relatively small numbers.
I visited Venhill cables too and saw how they worked, and they told me the same story. They can handle low production runs, but can't compete with Far East prices where the quality might not be as good, but is generally felt to be good enough.
Ace Classic produce almost everything of theirs in the UK. Or they did, last time I spoke to them.
It was the same story when I visited Dial Patterns, and when I visited Phil Pearson. They can all produce the parts, but not at a price most people will pay (albeit prefectly reasonable prices). Therefore, a smaller set of people are their customers, which includes me.
The difference with Les Harris is that he was already established NOT as a "classic" bike parts supplier, but as a manufacturer of parts for contemporary parts. He had fairly good contracts, and a reliable distribution chain. When Triumph went bust, Les continued along a familiar groove, but even he has had to outsource. And there are many parts he doesn't produce because they're uneconomic. He once said that he would have had to stop Bonneville production anyway because of the cost of re-tooling in the UK (this was when his licence was about to expire).
Moreover, pretty much all the parts I've bought for my Triumph T140 in the past ten years have needed remedial work to make them usable. I'm not saying these are all Harris parts. Some were from Taiwan. But I am saying that MANY of these parts were made right here and built down to a price. In other words, they were no better than Indian or Taiwanese built items.
A consistent source of high quality Triumph spares, take note, is Japan, that makes some wonderful stuff (Japan's in the far east too, in case anyone isn't sure). But America manages to make some good barrels and suchlike, but check out the prices.
Also, it's worth remembering that, good or bad, the remanufactured Indian girder forks for BSAs and Nortons HAVE come from the far east, not Britain. Jake made it clear that he couldn't produce them until the demand was very high, and he felt he would have to charge £1500-£2000 per set.
The bottom line is this: If Jake relocated to the far east, he COULD re-make the forks, and probably at a consistently high quality.
I'm not for one second suggesting that India is about to see a quality classic bike spares boom. No way. I'm simply pointing out that there's no TECHNICAL reason, or FINANCIAL reason, why it couldn't happen. That's all. It's just a CULTURAL thing that India (and China) is rapidly dealing with.
A year from now, those Indian built budget girders might well be perfectly acceptable.
But like I said, I'm not sure where the argument is here.
email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine,com
I've been following this topic and it definitely makes for some good reading.
What this..."Let's get the Indians to produce"....stuff?
I have 17 bikes and just one of them is a BMW. All the rest of them have 'Made in England' all over them. To me quality spares are to be got from the UK or Europe, they cost a packet but they are worth it to me.
I rely a lot on NOS and spares from donor bikes in this part of the world but I still do a lotof my shopping for spares in the UK.
There is quality Indian spares to be had over here but they cost as much as it would cost to source from the UK, Europe or Stateside and then when you add the cost of shipping to the cost price, it becomes quite prohibitive. Personally, I have had sprockets, gears, spindles,valves and a few other bits and peices made here in India. Quality steel is readily available and after checking out the metallurgy, hardness etc of the original we have to chase up the bar stock to match the original or better it. Then it goes to the CNC guys..blah blah blah, the process is the same as in any other part of the world.
Since what ever spares are being made is for our/my own use a lot of care is taken to make sure that the end product-patterned off NOS- is as good as the original or better(do I hear some snickers?)metallurgically-that is and the workmanship is superb.
The reason for the poor quality stuff that originates for India is simple- you get what you pay for. If you wanted good quality spares you would have to pay a packet and the only way to drop the price would be-volume.Unfortunately at present there simply isn't a market, big enough to warrant those volumes.
So to me it should be more like 'Lets ge the Brits to produce...rather than "Let's get the Indians to produce". I still value the old "Made in England" thing 
Hi Hank..I agree with all of that and it's interesting to hear an 'insiders' view of the market place in India. As I tried to point out in an earlier post if you add 'quality' and all that implies to the list of criteria there are inevitable price implications. That applies to any market anywhere. The 'price advantage' if there is one is the labour cost being lower, but I think any gain there would be outweighed by the additional logistical costs of shipping parts over a long distance and the very high 'up front' costs of setting the whole thing up (assuming that you would rather live in England than India).
It is a fair bet that anyone who has bought pattern valves lately for thier M20 is running Indian valves..they are providing the bulk of these to the UK market..and they are perfectly good components. There is no doubt that some sectors of manufacturing industry in India are producing pretty good parts...you just have to be selective.
The absolute key to this discussion is the question of volumes..this determines what production methods can be used, where the production facilities can be based etc.
If volumes were high the solutions would be easy, it would just be a case of tapping into modern mass production methods to gain the unit price benefits.
That is absolutely not the case though...demand for parts on a pure numbers basis is relatively low in most cases and is also very inconsistent.
This rules out volume production of any type in the accepted terms of 'volume'...unless someone is prepared to fill up a warehouse with a range of unsold parts and then sit back and wait for them to sell.
This fact also limits the amount of investment that can be put into any one part...a high 'up front' developement and/or manufacturing cost could take years to 'pay back' and would 'load' every component in a low volume run...For example..I was quoted £1500 to make the pattern to cast B33 barrels. If I then manufacture say, 50, that would put £30 onto every one just to cover the pattern cost. Then they need to be cast, fettled, machined (with any jigging costs added at that point), shipping and transport costs during production need to be covered and finally a realistic profit has to be applied...So how much is a new B33 barrel going to cost?...
It strikes me that it is very easy to talk about the theory of manufacturing parts but to do so in low volumes, with a well made, good quality end product that is at least reasonably affordable is pretty difficult.
As far as military motorcycles and the supply of spares for those is concerned they are often going to be produced on a 'wing and a prayer' by individuals or small businesses that are not able to consistently invest in production, are catering to a small market and could not afford to fund large scale production even if it was viable.
Accepting that, not only does the selling price of the finished product need to be affordable but so does the production cost.
It is not reasonable to imagine that anyone is going to make substantial investments into such a low volume environment where potential customers believe they should be able to buy good quality products cheaply....
That was the reason for my initial posting..to try to gauge how contributors to this forum regarded the implications of a dwindling supply of NOS and original parts, whether they had made any moves to mitigate this and whether they thought that buying good quality replica parts now as an 'insurance' against future shortages and inevitable increasing costs was a good investment.. ...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Hi Iain..I have a Harley Sportster...Their policy is to supply replacement parts through the dealer network for 10 years from a given production year. After that some parts are still available if they have gone onto later models and not been superceded. Harley tend to upgrade their models about every 3-5 years, when quite a few parts are changed. Mine is a 2000 model and that was the year some changes were made...the next big change was made in 2004 so most parts up to 2004 will fit my model.
So, as my bike was purchased early in a 'change cycle' I effectively have spares availability for 13 years, not 10 ( 10 years after the 2003 models).
That is the case as I have had no problems obtaining parts through my local Harley dealer (usually 3-7 days) and the bike is now nearly 12 years old.
There is also a very comprehensive aftermarket supply chain for the Sportster with generally very good quality parts.
This and the relatively slow rate of change of Harley models is an advantage if you buy one and intend to keep it and this was one of the things I took into account before buying mine.
Although very off topic it would be interesting to know the policies of other manufacturers..I would think a 10 year supply of parts is fairly standard.
However, with companies that produce new models every year and constantly change the specifications how easy it is to get those parts is another question and there is little interchangeability between model years. I know many years back when I had a 4 year old Suzuki it was a lot harder to get parts for than my 51 B33.Everything went on 'back order' for weeks or months before it appeared. When they were in business BSA supplied spares for 20 years I believe...but times have changed..With Japanese bikes and others problems of spares supply for (not very) old models is the price of constant change I suppose..and keeping anything for very long is itself an outdated idea..your supposed to change to the latest model every couple of years. After all,later ones are half a kilo lighter and a nano second faster from 0-100mph.. ..Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
My mates in the late 70's early 80's were Kawasaki mad! A couple of them worked at the local Kawasaki dealer and were always replacing there bikes for the latest model. Some of these models were only made for 6 months. Parts for these bikes now are rarer than M20 bits. I opted out of this "keeping up with the Jone's" rat race and bought a Norton
Whether you love 'em or hate 'em Harley Davidson's are probably the best example of a cult status bike. Even if Harley stopped making all parts for past models, there are numerous manufacturers that do. In fact most Harley owner change everything for non-Harley parts as a matter of course. You will always be able to get parts for your bike Ian, made by somebody or other.
Which is probably the same reason the Indian's still make parts for old single. Enfield's are a cult bike there, that's what they ride and love and are ideal for the road conditions. I can't imagine Yamaha sell many R1's there..? So there is a demand in India for big single parts. These parts are obviously adequate or acceptable to the majority of Indian buyers, and that's all they're really interested in. It's the lack of demand, and therefore manufacturers everywhere else that has meant we have had to find these suppliers in India, as the only replacement parts readily available.
I can't see the situation changing as these old British bikes are only getting fewer. It will always be enthusiasts making small batches of quality parts, that keep us on the road.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
I ran an early 1976 350 Yamaha back in the 1970s. It regularly had electrical problems (diodes in the rectifier going open-circuit and that sort of thing). It also fried alternators (are they called 'alternators' because it was alternately the rotor and then the stator that gave up?)
After a couple of second hand units, I bit the bullet some time in 1981 and went into Brockliss Motorcycles and asked for a new one for my five year old bike.
The price at the time was £280 (the bike wasn't worth much more than that, they were only £650 new) and worst of all, delivery from Japan was eight weeks !
I gave up and bought a Norton (which had a soft camshaft, but that's another story - replacement soft camshafts were easily available )
Like Horror, I'd only owned 'modern' bikes up to that time and didn't see myself as a future old bike owner but I stuck with the Commando out of bloody-mindedness (I WILL get you sorted 
)Somehow the old bike thing crept up on me.
Anyway, back on topic.
I am starting to stockpile consumables for the 16H. I have a couple of dismantled engines that should give me a spare crank. If I find NOS cams then I'll buy. I have most of a carb on the shelf as well as next oversize piston and a spare cylinder.
I think that the next thing will be a spare magdyno to recondition as that isn't something that I can order by post and have here in a few days.
Generally, if I now see period NOS at an affordable price then I buy. As someone mentioned, it's always useful to trade, if nothing else.
Hi Rik..I may have the parts to put a recon. Norton mag together...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Oh, Good Man ! - Clockwise drive, pick-up next to the cylinder and four-bolt platform fixing ?
If so, then perhaps we can get things together for Stafford ?
It might be a chance to try out one of those new external condensors.
By the way, I met up with Jan 'Somewhere in France' a couple of weeks back and finally handed his dynamo over. I forgot it at Christmas.
Hi Rik...I've mailed you regarding a mag. Funnily enough I've just bought some of those girt countersunk screws that hold the mag to the platform....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com