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As a follow up to the recent threads on 'costs' and 'values' check out 'Venture Classics' for a professionaly restored restored BSA A7 for sale at £12,000 pounds (sold now but still on the site).
The work was carried out by a well known British restorer and the bike came with restoration receipts for £32,000!
£12,000 is a very high price for an A7 (using market 'norms' as a gauge) but it doesn't take a mathematician to calculate the £20,000 deficit on the sale.
I think that illustrates neatly Dannys point that sale price hasn't got any direct connection to restoration costs and also proves my point that the market displays a degree of disfunction when sale values for thoroughly restored machines are so far removed from the actual costs.
As the professional restorer will have kept an accurate record of component costs and has probably applied a realistic labour charge to reflect the hours and overheads involved, it rather leads to the conclusion that if you can buy a really well restored WD bike for £6000 it should be viewed as a low, not high, price to pay. That figure probably represents less than the total cost of the purchase and restoration of the bike and and you have got hundreds of labour hours and overheads for nothing.....Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
Interesting comments Ian, I hope everyone is well on the forum, love the Spitfire picture.
Those lovely people at the HMRC have sent me a very large tax bill from 3 years ago..its looking like "Idris" may well be available for sale, she's sitting outside under cover well wrapped up, so its with a very heavy heart I write this, almost tears in fact..if anyone is interested or looking for a 1941 M20 and they make me the right offer, she may well have a new owner..details on contact.
email (option): kit247@hotmail.com
I agree, Ian.
I envy those guys I know, which are riding M20s and are "deaf"
for engine noises and "blind" to low-to almost no light and charge, and proudly say they did not put 1 cent into the bike from the day they bought it.
Even if I do everything by myself on my BSA, and the bike is not perfect, judging by some of the forum member bikes,
If I will add the price of alternator, clutch, carb, paint, overhaul parts- all NOS, speedometer, tires, and
I don’t even remember half of it now,
there is no way I will get even half the price out of it,
even if the bike will be completely plated in pure gold..
On the other hand, I see descent restored bikes which are being sold in "regular" prices, or even only a bit higher, as no one would pay the real value of restoration..
Noam.
email (option): noam10@gmail.com
This A7 restoration I think it's absolutely ridiculous..!
You have to pick the right bike to restore that is going to be worth the money in the first place, or make the restoration reflect the value of the bike, and he clearly hasn't to be £20,000 out of pocket. How he's spent that much I really don't know but you would have thought when the restoration started going over budget, you would have a serious sit down and work out the best way of finishing the bike with out mortgaging the house. All that expense getting it "right" and he then puts indicators etc on it..!!
He was very lucky to get £12,000 for it.
There are 2 types of restoration, one's to make money, and one's for the love of it. The 1st type has a budget and the 2nd is a hobby. You have to decide which type you're doing.
My 16H started of as one to sell with a budget. I was determined NOT to get attached to it, but even the missus was saying I gotta keep it. So from that point the budget goes out the window (within reason). I'm certainly not going to spent £32k on it.
However, I do agree with Ian's comments about buying a well restored bike. I haven't added up the cost of restoring my 16H, but I've actually stopped writing it all down. probably about £2000-£2500 plus the cost of the bike £3.500 = £6000 but I've done it for the love of it and for ME and not anyone else.
The benefits of restoring a bike yourself are; There's a big difference between being able to afford £6000 for a bike or £3.500 and doing it up when you've got more money.
You know every nut and bolt of the bike and how it goes together so maintaining it is easier.
You also know everything has been done correctly.
You could spend £6k on a "restored" bike and later find out it's more cosmetic than mechanical..!
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
Just adding shipping for the parts needed for a reasonably complete bike willl send the true cost skyward!
email (option): britool51@hotmail.com
Next thing to talk about is the cost of real parts, and repro parts to complete a motorcycle. It seems that newly-made parts are fetching a fair price, otherwise no one would bother putting those on the market. But is there a difference in prices between something that has been at the BSA factory or something made out of recycled scrap metal?
At the moment I am contemplating breaking my once a basket case WD-C and offer the parts seperately: I am sure to make more money, and have much less agro of tyre-kickers. But somehow, it still will take some time to convince myself that is the right way forward.
And on the cost of restoration: when I did my first Norton WD-16H up, I had the choice of several incomplete wrecks, just two years before the Dutch market was flooded with some 100's ex-Greek army bikes, Norton going for Fl. 750 in 1979! Obviously the HD WLA made a much larger amount, and these were the prime reason for Moto-Lux buying the whole lot of HD and Nortons.
email (option): rvanmeel@wanadoo.nl
My view of repro parts is this...There are poorly made repro parts that may well be made of 'recycled scrap metal'...and there are well made repro parts that are correctly manufactured from 'first generation' materials.
In the latter case we are looking at 2012 material and manufacturing costs so in purely cost terms these parts are bound to 'cost' more than the ones made in 1945. However, the 1945 (original) parts carry a massive premium purely because they are just that...original.
Therefore in seeking to compare the two categories you are attempting to balance an actual cost (the new part) against a subjective 'value' (the original part) that is now unrelated to the original cost.
That is always going to be difficult as it depends on the individuals attitude to the concept of 'replica' or 'original' parts.
Personally, for example, I am perfectly happy to fit a good quality replica part if it is more 'sound' than any available original...Others would choose the opposite course of action and therefore the original parts would be valued differently depending on the point of view.
The third category..poorly made parts manufactured from materials of dubious origin, are hardly worth considering as part of a discussion of relative values...Ian
email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com
I agree with your comments Ian regarding the costs of NOS parts verses new correctly made parts. I recently offered for sale these original NOS G3L parts for £10. Believe me I am not at all bothered about selling them. But can you imagine the cost of getting them accurately reproduced in spring steel. Ron
email (option): ronpier@talk21.com
Yes I think you could be right about that Rik.
The customer must be stupid. You would have a budget for the job and get a rough quote from the restorer based on his previous experience, you wouldn't give them a blank cheque. I had a MkII Jag fully restored and we agreed a price, not an hourly rate. He'd just finished a couple and knew that the price had to go up a bit, but not enough that the car wasn't worth the money when it was finished.
As I said, it's picking the right vehicle for the amount of money you're willing to spend, without exceeding it's value.
I helped a bloke do-up a Bantam, and bought £200 worth of bits from Burton's. This was close to the total amount there was. A Bantam wasn't worth doing up financially.
email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk
There's a program on TV over here called American Restoration, about a shop in Nevada, USA that will restore almost anything people bring to them, I've seen them do bicycles for thousands of dollars, cash registers and Coke coolers, also an old go-cart. Probably all done to a much higher standard than the original products, at huge prices- labour, chroming, fancy paint are all very expensive! But most items are done for sentimental reasons, and who can put a price on that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Restoration
email (option): vinver@ns.sympatico.ca