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It didn't sell

Well, my M20 didn't sell at the Las vegas auction, so I've got to come up with another idea. I've decided to drop the price and see what happens. I'm asking $6300, but will sell the bike only for $5800, or so.

What do you guys think?

email (option): tfmurphy3@yahoo.com

Re: It didn't sell

Tom. We all think that these bikes are worth a lot more than they really are, you must remember an item is only worth what anyone is prepared to pay and no more. There are far too many people with high expectations, because they have seen them advertised at a high price.
Don't get me wrong, I know how much it costs to restore a bike as I have done several and the only reason that I would put a high price on it would be so that someone could knock me down so that we both come out happy in the end.

Kind regards TTJohn

Re: It didn't sell

I was looking at a private sale advert just yesterday (UK) for a WD G3L Matchless at £6350..Will it sell?..Who knows. On the right day with a keen would be owner, maybe. It is certainly top money, or over, on todays market for that model.
My own feeling is that if a bike is exceptional and virtually perfect these high prices should be achievable....In that case more money and time has been lavished on the job than 'the average'.
Ultimately though..whatever you are selling, you have to have the buyer that agrees with your view of the world and your valuations. If you have got it right that generally doesn't take long..if you have it wrong by general concensus it will take longer and you need more luck in finding someone to pay the price....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell

some years ago i brought an m20 paid a good price it looked well rebuilt i only did 20 miles and the whole clutch fell off mag dyno had to be rebuilt and front fork bushing and spindles redone plus other little bits and bobs i must have spent another £2000 on it at least so i would pay £5000 to £6000 if i knew that it came from someone off this site and was top notch

Re: It didn't sell

Roger, I think your bike was correctly price and a bargain for those on the forum.

email (option): unpob@yahoo.com

Re: It didn't sell: exchange confusion??

I'm not sure if everyone got it, but Tom is talking bucks, not quid.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Re: It didn't sell: exchange confusion??

Hi Tom..I make $6000 to be £3824..but it could certainly fetch that in the UK...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: exchange confusion??

henri i paid £2900 for mine 5 years ago plus the extra spent makes at least £4900 +

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

I think the classic bike market is showing some serious signs of cooling. At a recent major auction, a number of "blue chip" bikes failed to find a buyer. Elsewhere, I've watched a number of machines go unsold at what I thought were reasonable prices.

As ever in a depressed financial climate, there's continued polarisation, and generally the market for 1930s bikes is doing fairly well. But a lot of other bikes which rose quickly in price are now falling just as quickly.

The problem with M20s is that of supply and demand. When I bought mine 7 or 8 years ago (£920, with spares, and in need of easy recommissioning), M20s weren't as common as they are now. But the restoration bug has infected a lot of people, many of whom (it has to be said), have discovered that M20 eye-appeal is far ahead of their riding appeal. Consequently, you don't have to wait long to find another one for sale. That has to force the price down.

I'm expecting to see further falls all round, perhaps even bringing the typical price (for a sorted bike) down to around £2500. At the very least, I think we're looking as much slower sales if people are asking top money - not that Tom's bike was unreasonably priced.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

I think part of the problem is the fact that there has been a blurring of what is worth money and what isn't in the rush to cash in on the current boom.
A well restored M20 isn't particularly overpriced when restoration costs are considered..never mind the labour that has gone into the job.
I would say if you buy a competently and fully restored M20 for £4500-£5000 you are doing pretty well...it would cost more than that just for the labour if you took it to a professional restorer.
Personally I don't see a readjustment to anywhere near £2500..more a levelling off and slowing of the rise if anything. That sort of money wouldn't even cover the cost of a comprehensive restoration today, without considering the initial purchase price of the bike.
A well restored bike is definitely worth the money..the trouble is that much of what is on offer is not well restored..but is still at that sort of money, and amazingly people are paying it...
I would happily see a drop in the price of basket cases, barn finds and badly restored machines..it is that sector of the market that has been inflated beyond reason in my opinion.
I did a 'concours' type restoration on my BSA B30 starting with a basket case and ending up with a bike as fully restored as it could be...The restoration itself cost £5000 ot thereabouts (not less) without the initial purchase price. The last M20 I 'completely' restored cost £3000 without the purchase price...and that was a number of years back.
What I mean here is not a partial restoration..Every single part of the bike was refurbished, refinished and/or replaced as required...
£2500?...how is that going to happen?..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Hi Ian, the problem is that the price of a restoration has little bearing on the sale price. You might spend a similar amount of money on a BSA C11, and you still wouldn't realise M20 prices.

I do see a lot of cooling this year. Yes, investors are still paying large sums for certain bikes, but they appear to be getting increasingly finicky and fussy about what they will and won't accept.

One of the problems with M20s, and with a lot of other bikes, is over-restoration. You know better than me how a barn-find M20 (complete with plenty of rust, leaks and years of neglect) can sometimes fetch £2000-£3000, while a "sorted" example might not fetch more than £4000.

That's not to say that M20s prices won't hold to similar levels as they are today, but I'm not expecting to see these bikes snapped up the way they used to be. I think my own WM20 would struggle to see £2200, whereas I think it would have fetched £2600-£2800 a year ago.

True, mine hasn't got most of the military kit. But it's still a pretty good basic military bike. I think the market is falling and will continue to fall as this recession bites.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Danny DeFazio
You know better than me how a barn-find M20 (complete with plenty of rust, leaks and years of neglect) can sometimes fetch £2000-£3000, while a "sorted" example might not fetch more than £4000.

That pretty much makes my point..properly restored M20s are currently not expensive..quite the reverse in fact..the purchase and restoration costs are not really covered at the point of sale....whereas barn finds etc. in comparison are over priced. They still need to have a lot of money spent on them to create a good useable machine.
The latter comes about because people consistently under estimate restoration costs when looking at a bike that rquires this work, this leads them to miscalculate the cost for the whole project and makes them accept the inflated prices on offer.
Purchase price plus restoration cost is the actual value of a bike....Restoration costs can't be reduced below those of a full restoration if that is the standard..and it should be.
If after purchase and restoration the bike has cost more than the market will stand then either the market is flawed, with sale values set too low..or the initial purchase price of the project is too high..making hitting the market price impossible...Ian


email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Ian, I disgree. The "value" of a bike is whatever the market will stand. Full stop. It's irrelevant what the restoration costs. I don't think useability has much to do with it for many "investor" buyers. And I think that's what's been propping up the market for a while.

The barn-find bikes have the patina, etc, that investors want. There's a good argument to say that many, if not most, M20s have been ruined by restoration (as opposed to simply being repaired and maintained).

But beyond that, I'm not sure what we're arguing about here.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

What is 'ruined' depends entirely on which direction you approach the market..and bikes..from. Investors are not the only people in the marketplace..in fact I believe they are in the minority. There is no more arguement to say a bike has been ruined by restoration than by saying it has been ruined by being left in a barn to rot, or by being made into a chopper. That depends entirely on your standpoint.
However, restoration costs cannot be regarded as irrelevant.. a market that has 'values' set lower than 'costs' will itself fall into ruin at some point...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Ian, I agree that "ruined" is an emotive term, but what I'm seeing more and more of are bikes that have to be "just right", and that doesn't necessarily mean immaculate, or even usable.

I think that what I'm saying is that the cost of restoration is likely to be less of a factor in the overall selling price of M20s. I'm not sure that people are so ready to pay top money, regardless of the condition.

Money is tight, and buyers are increasingly looking for entry level bikes; i.e. machines that they can "capture" at a low cost, and then develop for themselves over a long period. These buyers have less "big money" to spend.

Further up the food chain, investors will pay a premium for bikes that haven't been "mucked around with". I'm thinking of M20s with all the bells and whistles, but not necessarily the right bells and whistles that would have originally come with the bike (early bikes with panniers and canvas grips and/or Vokes, etc).

I keep a close eye on the classic car world too, and there are similar signs; good restored vehicles are becoming hard to sell, whereas projects are still fetching disproportionate money. You can't explain to a buyer that this car is selling for less than the restoration costs; the buyer simply doesn't have ten grand or fifteen grand to spend.

Ditto for M20s. When you factor in the restoration costs (not including labour), a £5000-£6000 M20 is usually on the money. All I'm saying is that that's becoming less and less relevant. I think buyers are, therefore, effectively capping prices by their unwillingness to pay top money. Yes, there are exceptions, but it appears (and I stress "appears") to be developing into a trend. If true, that will result is either lower prices, or longer selling times. There's a parallel there with the property market.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

i think most private restorers do'nt expect to get there full expenditure back it is like all hobbies the money spent is well over what you could get back for what ever you are making or restoring for instants a friend spent over £10,000 on restoring american car and sold it for £3000 to fund another project

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

It is a fact that in some cases the enthusiastic serial bike restorer is not thinking in commercial terms, rather about the enjoyment he gets from the activity. As a result asking prices frequently don't reflect the costs of the project.
It is also true that the classic bike market is no different to other markets and as such is not 'recession proof'...This recession is having an effect on prices. As the market covers a huge range of prices and the 'players' have widely varying incomes just where and how much that effect will be seen will be interesting to observe.
As the lower income buyers are being hit the hardest at the moment it is a reasonable assumption that it will be the bikes that the 'ordinary' person buys it will be that sector that will feel the effects first I would think.
I don't disagree with the proposition that the recession is beginning to affect the market..I already know that as I am directly involved in it in making my living.
I think in discussing the effects it is unwise to make general statements, as the bike market is 'multi layered' with vastly different buyers who have different reasons for their involvement.. and there an equally large variety of bikes that are percieved very differently..At one end you have £350 autocycles..at the other £260,000 Brough Superiors..
Attitudes have changed..I find even the committed enthusiast thinks more about the money that is involved than was previously the case 15 years ago or more..Many do now consider the bike as an investment to one degree or another, as well as something they just want to own and enjoy, where previously that was of little interest.
If the market does fall sharply and alters even more the balance between restoration costs and 'values' then I believe that will have serious implications for peoples involvement.
Price fluctuations in the market are not mirrored by restoration costs which inevitably continue to move in an upwards direction...How long will it be before a large number of people decide the 'investment' they have restored (or are considering restoring) is actually going to cost them thousands?...If that notion gets a hold and they decide that's not a brilliant idea then the classic bike market will really be in trouble...Ian



email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

WD bikes will not have the problem of "originality" that many other bikes and cars have, i.e., buyers wanting original patina over a restored vehicle, because these bikes are already in their second life because of the REME "restorations" in the 1950s. They will never be "original" but only "restored", to one degree or another.

As for restored vehicles of any type, it is the norm, rather than the exception, that they sell for less than the cost of restoration. Of course, this does not apply to high-end vehicles, since the cost of restoration is so much less in proportion to the value of the base vehicle. Spending $50,000 to restore a Deusenberg is not the same as spending the same amount to restore a Dodge. You will certainly get back your restoration costs in the former but you will certainly not get back more than a small fraction of the costs in the latter.

Ian, you are right that "many now consider the bike as an investment" but many more fool themselves that it is an investment in order to justify, in their own minds, the purchase, when in fact they are just buying a toy.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

OK, so everyone has a different idea (kinda') on what makes a bike worth more or less. Yes, prices do go up and down. However, as these bikes age, OEM parts are going to be MUCH harder to source. What will an original Lycett seat be worth in five years? $400? $500? At that point cost of restoration will easily climb above $8,000-9,000. Then what's the M20 worth? Surely not $7,000. How about $10,000?

I've been in the car/motorcycle business for 45 years, and the main thing I've learned about old vehicles is buy the best you can afford. Buying at $1500 verses $6000 just insures that you'll spend another $6000 to get to where the bike is worth the original $6000. Those who say "I'll buy the barn-find and slowly put it back together over the years" insure that future collectors will be able to find the same bike as a barn-find ten years from now.

Aside from that, what does REME stand for? Rear Echelon Maintenance E?

email (option): tfmurphy3@yahoo.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

I agree with the views being expressed here..or rather I acknowledge their existence and validity to those that have them.. It shows well how there are multiple 'shades of grey' when it comes to bikes, what they are about and how, ultimately, everything is determined by your personal take on it.
I use my bikes as my form of transport..that puts me in a minority, but ensures that in my little world a good restoration will beat 'patina' every time. Patina tends to extend beyond components that are purely visual, with a resulting potential compromise in functionality and service life. Not much use when I am on the motorway 'half way to somewhere.'
New cables, new bearings etc. and things that make the bike more practical and longer lasting, like the dreaded stainless fasteners and exhausts, are either essentials or better options for every day running and durability.
Generally these things don't compromise the core experience of riding an older bike but do ensure long term reliability and less frequent repair work between the major rebuilds.
Interestingly, despite 'originality' and 'patina' being valued in some quarters it is nearly always restored machines that do the winning at shows...odd that...Ian



email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Ian, isn't that a bit like saying that despite all the other qualities, the girl who wins the beauty contest is very often the one with the more obvious assets who's also done the maximum restoration work?



Regarding riding M20s, I also prefer functionality to originality (even to the extent of stainless steel, where appropriate). But the buying public, especially at the top end, often sees it differently. The ideal for me is a compromise between the two viewpoints. But then, I'm a photographer (of sorts), so it's natural that I look for more interesting textures, which includes rust, and oil and even flaking paint.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

R.E.M.E. is Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers. From 1942 onwards, they were responsible for major maintenance on vehicles.

One thing to bear in mind here I think is that the cultural baggage on a large scale that accompanies M20s in the UK and some of the liberated lands is probably not present in the US. There has never been a huge number of British war films showing the BSA as truly the motorcycle that won the war.

There are quite a lot of M20s in the US it would seem and the market for them in military trim is quite small. Combine that with the much harder spares availability and greater distances and it's perhaps not surprising that it's sometimes hard to link seller with willing purchaser.

In the UK, I'd say that there are no motorcyclists over fifty-something (who started off young) and who haven't either owned a BSA side valve or at least had a very good friend who allowed them to fall off one. They were that common. Nearly all of our fathers or grandfathers had ridden them in service and nearly any that come up for sale will be within half a day's drive.

One further factor perhaps is that in 'Theme Park UK', a significant proportion of the population lives on nostalgia and the idea of riding to the pub past ancient buildings on a girder-forked motorcycle dating from when British industry could still compete and Britain was still a world power, does have a certain attraction.

Internet forums of course help to spread that enthusiasm and the idea that the things sell themselves but perhaps it isn't true everywhere.

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

My thinking behind fully restoring a bike is that when it is completed everything starts off in the same condition at the same time..rather like a new bike.
That means I will (hopefully) get the maximum time out of the bike before I have to start doing repairs and replacements and will only have to engage in routine maintenance for that period. Furthermore, I am fully aware of the condition of every part from the outset and on an ongoing basis as the bike is used, making it simple to plan repairs and replacements when needed.
The repainted and plated components are also as well protected as they can be against further deterioration of the base metals.
Once rebuilt my bikes get used as transport..I don't run a car..and although I try to keep them as good as I can for as long as I can I don't try to keep them looking 'freshly restored'. just well maintained. Over a period of years I simply wear them out again as you would with any vehicle that gets used. (rather like what happened to them from new)
In the case of my M20 that has meant considerably over 100,000 miles during my ownership. I rebuilt the bike about 18 months after buying it and again somewhere along the way as it became worn out and was beginning to have a little more rust than I was happy with.
As the bike was properly restored its reliability record is exemplorary and it has rarely stopped at the side of the road..I can't even remember the last time it failed me.(and it always starts)..The concept and worth of restoration should not be judged by the bad ones. I've also seen and worked on plenty of unrestored bikes that don't run well.
My M20 has been restored..its had patina..and its been restored again..all without being stood in a barn and all during the time I've owned it..
I've probably done more with it than the Army did..and THAT is all part of its ongoing history.
Picking a point in history to stop at, or choosing to preserve some rust that it happened to acquire at some point is, in my opinion, far less 'authentic'..particularly so if the bike is not in its original factory finish. And at what point does that become untennable? 50% of the original paint?..40%..10%?
That is 'selecting' and 'stopping' history and the point at which anyone decides to stop it is purely arbritary..Personally I don't regard rust, peeling paint and patchy plating as some sort of 'badge of merit'..It is just a result of either use, inadequate maintenance or neglect and is an indicator that it is time to do some preservation work..as you would, for example, with the big end or brake shoes when they become worn....Ian
.

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

I view the "originality" or "patina" issue as a current price bubble: it's simply in vogue now and the lemmings are following it and paying extra for it, but they will find in a few years that it has no real value and they overpaid. These are going to be the bikes (and cars) that will lose value when the "originality" bubble bursts.

Separately, I just don't see the difference. The BSA bloke who originally built the bike took the bare metal frame, cleaned it, painted it and built a bike around it. I now take the same frame, sand blast it, paint it and build a bike around it. What's the diff?

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

BSA

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

I bid on at auction a few years back (but unfortunately didn't get) a 1954 swinging arm BSA Gold Flash that had 16,000 miles on it from new and had been owned from new by a local owner.
The bike was completely standard and original right down to the control cables and battery and still had good original paint and chrome.
That, without doubt, was a truly 'original' bike and with some careful checking and recommissioning could have been put back into use right away.
Restoring it would not only have been pointless but would have destroyed the (intact) original finishes applied at the factory.
I completely understand the desire to preserve such a machine in its original form and accept that as such machines are a rarity these days they would be coveted by potential owners..I would love to have got that BSA myself.
However, in the case of a 'barn find' or similar which has lost half of its original paint and plating to rust and requires extensive replacement of its original mechanical components, control cables, etc. etc. to turn it into a running machine, I think that people are deluding themselves if they think they have something 'original' at the end of that process.
These bikes didn't leave the factory in rusted and dented condition..What they actually have is the sad remains of an 'original' finish that will no longer serve its purpose of protecting the underlying metal if the bike were actually to be used through a couple of winters, and a selection of other parts that are no longer serviceable and now require replacement.
These finishes were intended to serve a purpose on what is, or should be a well functioning machine, in exactly the same way as a piston or a bearing...and just as you would replace a defective bearing to maintain the machines proper function you should replace finishes that no longer serve their purpose.
Of course, now that many in 'the market' have pretty much forgotten what that purpose is and wouldn't use the machines for that anyway if they hadn't, they can indulge themselves in whimsical concepts about 'originality'.
The bike I described initially was still in good original condition and was worthy of preservation in that form, but in my opinion, if there is to be any type of 'readjustment' in this market it would be worth reconsidering just what is really worthy of preservation and what can realistically be regarded as 'original'.
The flaking remains of an original factory finish liberally sprinkled with corrosion?..not really. What's has survived might be original paint..but is no longer an 'original' finish, either in form or function. Face up to the fact that 'originally' it was a pristine, new machine that unfortunately, no longer exists...Ian



email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Danny DeFazio
BSA



Exactly my point: merely a conceptual difference, not a real one. Some people believe in ghosts, too.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Hi John, that's true. But if it's real in your head, then it's real. And people will pay a premium for that conceptual difference.

Note to Ian: The thing is, you see things very much from a functional point of view. I've got a boot in that camp too, but I've got one boot in the (oh oh) aesthetic camp.

As I said, I like the look of rust and flakey paint and whatnot. It's a "romantic" thing. Old tractors in fields and crumbling castles, etc. If you saw an ancient monunument, you'd reach for a trowel, some bricks and a cement mixer. I'd reach for a camera, a flashgun and a tripod. Unless I needed a roof over my head.

The thing is, I don't really "buy" this "custodian of the bikes" thing. I'm not preserving my bike for future generations, etc (although I'd like it to survive). I'm trying to live for now. Today. I use equipment, and get as much as I can from it (aesthetic and practical), and when it's dead, it's dead.

Someone once said: To hell with posterity. What have the unborn ever done for me? To an extent, I sympathise with that point of view.

Yes, there's a point when aesthetic interests compromise practicality. Which is when I reach for the oily rag to wipe over the rust and slow the decay. But it's all decaying. And all bikes are like Cromwell's Axe (two new handles and three new axe heads, but otherwise original).

People like barn finds because it appeals to the "explorer" in them. Yes, it's fake and phoney, but that's what a significant percentage of the market likes. It's a phoney world.

From a buying point of view, it doesn't matter that the rusting heap isn't actually going to ride anywhere. It's still got value because the next guy in line accepts it as currency. The classic bike world is full of boxes of bits forever trading hands. We'll just have to get over it.

Meanwhile, you keep riding 'em, and I'll keep photographing 'em.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Danny DeFazio
It's still got value because the next guy in line accepts it as currency.


This is exactly what price bubbles are made of. It is exactly why the tulip bubble existed in Holland and, more recently, the Internet stock bubble and the real estate bubble. In all cases everyone accepted "value" because the next guy would buy it but, of course, in the end a lot of people were left holding "assets" which were under water and worth only a small fraction of what they paid for them. The only M20 I am keeping in "original" form is one which I am using as a reference for restoring the rest, because it is so original.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Hi Danny..Don't get me wrong...I have an eye for the aesthetic..There is something about an old bike or car quietly corroding away in the corner of a field for instance...and anything that has been used will be bearing some 'battle scars' and the inevitable signs of use.
What I don't buy is the stretching of the word 'patina' (look it up) to include machines that have substantially deteriorated and the proposal that in restoring such machines you are destroying something irreplaceable and 'original'.
Accepting that genuine 'patina' is desirable and can add value in some quarters it is no surprise the use of the term has been bastardised to include everything that can support its own weight on its wheels, but in reality is well past that description..
'Patina' does not include serious deterioration of the objects finish or structure...
Now, if people find such deterioration attractive and consider it desirable that's ok by me...Personally I like to remain focused on what a motorcycle was created for and spend my time restoring old machines so that they can do that as efficiently as possible, for as long as possible...I don't kid myself the result is 'original', it's a way of winding the clock back towards zero and artificially extending the life of the machine so that it can be enjoyed again in a similar form...
That may not please the purists who have, in my opinion, kidded themselves that they have something origional when in reality they have something that is far removed from that state.
In fact I would suggest a well restored machine is far closer to the original specification of the bike when it was new (and completely 'original') than a patched up barn find..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

In my personal opinion a bike doesnt need to restored cosmeticaly to outlast a powdered coated / stainless showboat,its all about the mechanics for me.None of my own bikes are show standard but are all mechnically reliable to a extent I would trust them to take me anywhere day or night.The only bike I own that will have bits chromed / stainless and nice paint is my TRIBSA project as this will be used as a toy just for fun.I make no bones about my bikes being a bit scruffy but all are mechanically sound and work as intended by the factory that produced them if not better.If someone wishes to restore them once I no longer own them then they will be a easy restoration as it will be only paint and polish needed.As for leaving things like rusty chromework open to the elements I have sprayed 2 pack lacquer over these to protect the metal work underneath.There are bikes that turn up at my local bike meet that run rough as fuk but they look nice and when it starts to get dark the owners disappear to get home quick one guy even turns up on a TRIUMPH twin that he knows is not running right but continues to use it.. it is nicely restored but he doesnt know anything about the mechanics of the thing and as he only uses it at weekends he not to bothered about getting it running right as its not his daily transport.At the end of the day we all have a common interest and if all of us restored our bikes or on the other hand left them in working! condition them it would be sad old world. As for rotten tractors Danny you should see my INTERNATIONAL B250 Dave

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

Hi Dave..There are restored and unrestored bikes that run well..or don't..depending on how they have been prepared, and neither way is more or less likely to produce a useable bike in itself.
I'm really arguing whether a machine can still be accurately called 'original' when it has deteriorated to the degree it has lost the basic soundness of its original finish and needs the replacement of a substantial amount of its original mechanical parts to run. What exactly is left that is 'original' or 'as original' at that point? It would be more precise to say it has never been restored..not the same thing.
That has little to do really with whether it can be made to run well..it obviously can.
Also, at what point does the term 'patina' cease to apply as part of an accurate description of a bikes condition ?..
I have suggested the definition of 'patina' does not, in fact, include deterioration of the surface finish or structure of the object and if that is so then nothing is being lost or destroyed by restoration of something that is beyond that point..
I think these lines have become distorted and the words 'patina' and ' original' are habitually misused in the descriptions of bikes that aren't accurately described by the inclusion of either..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: It didn't sell: The market is cooling

'The Classic Motorcycle' used to run an 'original and unrestored' series and some were gems but many were nothing of the sort. They were unrestored and tidy but reflected fifty years of owners handpainting the mudguards and that sort of thing.

I like to see vehicles that have been used and well cared for. Footrest rubbers worn, paintwork polished where the knees rub, chrome worn on the levers. That is true 'patina' , like brasses that have lost their detail due to years of polishing and furniture with a shine that can't be replicated. However, I wouldn't apply it to a scrubbed pub table with cigarette burns. That's simply abuse.

My rolling chassis was too far gone not to restore. It wasn't a functioning motorcycle and I wanted it to reflect its five months of military service rather than it's sixty-five years idle in a Belgian barn.

I had to paint but I didn't refinish any of the dull-chromed parts where they could be cleaned up. It does mean the machine was not restored as new but I think that now that it's been running for over a year, it is starting to look like a well cared for bike after a year or two of use.

Fundamentally, I faked a period illusion but the guiding principle was that if the bike was seen by an old soldier of the BEF with a perfect memory, he wouldn't say 'There's something queer about that Norton, They weren't like that'

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