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W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Am, finally, getting around to the restoration of this Ariel. I won't go into specifics but, let's just say there were only three owners before me and the first was the government. It was acquired ( ;) ) before the war was seen out and was looking to be, lovingly, looked after ...............
So, here I am, with an original, almost complete, W/NG.
The engine number had been ground out and replaced with H2630. I found the correct number, though, in a different place which, luckily, had been overlooked by the second owner. This is BH11656 and is listed as part of the 3,000 Ariels requested, by the WD.
The Contract Number is C10477.
The frame number has been ground out and a different one added. This shows as H3279. I doubt I will ever know what the real number should be. But, there again, I consider this as part of the 'bike's history.
Now, according to Orchard & Maddern's listing this shows it was ordered late in '41 and the orders began coming through in Jan '42 with a completion by Feb '42. This has been verified by Draganfly, up in Bungay. Also, it is recorded as having 1,500 of the 'bikes go to Chilwell while the other half went to Ashchurch. Some to RAF and some to RN. From what I have been told, these were like distribution depots and the bikes would have been allocated their whereabouts from here. Is this correct? I cannot find any verification on this fact.
I need to replace all rubber components as they are pretty well perished. All except the tank knee grips as these are in, surprisingly, an OK condition. Shame that I have had to throw the tyres as these had been so unused that the little bits of rubber nobbles were still intact, and that the side walls stated these were WD with the noted arrow on them! I will need the following, if anyone can help:-

Handlebar grips
Handlebar anti-vibration clamp rubbers
Kickstart rubber
Gearchange rubber
Footrest rubbers
any other rubber component that I am not aware of?

This is where I have my first discrepancy. I have been told that the Gearchange rubber was not fitted to W/NGs. I do a lot of homework when I am interested in something but this seems odd. Can anyone put their input into this?

I have been questioned whether I should have, even, the two Ariel tank badges! For your information, my tank has the two indents either side but they are clean and smooth without any indication that they ever had any plate or fixing in place. This makes me question this as well: If the badges were attached with the two small screws (which, I have been told were then soldered into place to stop them vibrating free) then why do I not have any screw holes or, at least, a plate that may have been welded in place? Could my 'bike have used Ariel transfers instead? Could it not have been issued with any?

There are parts missing which I do know are required. These are:-
Handlebar horn button.
Regulator.
Top tool box
Bottom tool box
(and their associated brackets and 'bottle cap' knobs)
Field stand with its swivel bracket, spring clips and any other part associated with it.
Small chain for the oil tank cap.
Battery carrier and associated bracketry and straps.
Any help with the above would be grateful.

I was told that I must follow the relevant Owners Manual/Guide for my 'bike. Being that it is part of the Contract C10477 this dates it to late '41/very early '42. I have this manual but it does state, on the cover, that it is a reprint (and, therefore, updated and edited?) from '43. I was told (and pointed out in the manual) that my 'bike was issued with pannier frames, canvas bags and the 'Y' straps. Also, that it had a head lamp blackout mask. And that EVERYTHING was painted in a khaki green........Oh, and then, I was told (in the next breath! :roll: ) that it would have been totally down to each division/regiment/soldier/ or what have you, as to what they requested or how they finished it at their end!!??!!
This is what started the cogs whirring. I know that my 'bike looks pretty much today as the day it left the RAF field back in the 40's. I started researching and found this information:-

The R.A.M.T.S. Circular (dated October 1943) requested that (as part of ongoing concerns):
B.273 [date from] 12-06-42 Fitting of pannier bags and pillion seat conversion sets [for] Ariels

and.......

The R.A.M.T.S. Circular (dated January 1945) requested that (as part of ongoing concerns):
MOTORCYCLES
HEADLAMPS
(a) High power circuit 24-watt bulb.
(I) Low power circuit 3-watt bulb.
(ii) W.D. Pattern masks will be fitted.
(iii) If masks not available, action as in para. 2 (a) (v) above.

[Which is.......]

(v) If mask not available, light exit 2 inch diameter semi-circular hole in opaque material fitted behind the glass. Base of hole on centre line of lamp and circumference below it. Lower half of reflector painted Matt black up to 1/2 inch above centre line.

My 'bike shows no signs of any pannier frames being fitted let alone any holes in the mudguard to take the requested pillion seat. Also, I have no blackout mask fitted. Instead, I do have a slightly blackened half of the reflector and part of the glass.
As you can see I am ( and have) having great headaches over this. I would be most grateful of the following help:-

Finding the parts that need replacing, or are missing, from the above.
Knowing what to do about the tank badges.
How the field stand attaches to the frame using the swivel joint.
Should all my nuts, bolts, screws really be 'cotterised' when most will be painted over anyway?
Then there is the finish of the 'bike! Another great can of worms!
I am in contact with IWM and RAF, etc as I am hoping to find out where the 'bike was distributed and, finally, issued. Does anyone have an idea how I can find out what regiment/division/RAF/RN would have had this 'bike? This would, probably, dictate what colour finish I should have. But, there again, do I finish it in the appropriate colours as a tribute to my dad, who was a part of the SBS during the War and landed at Anzio and helped liberate Rome? If so, what would I have to do to get the colours and markings?
I know all this is pretty long winded but I would appreciate any help, directions, pointers, input or, even, argumentative discussion! The best bit of advice I have had, so far, is to go by original photographs of the date for my 'bike. Not photographs of 'bikes that have been rebuilt in modern times.
Looking forward to hearing from you all.
Regards.
&e

email (option): angleonart@force81sx.plus.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Pictures????

email (option): snvosselman@hotmail.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

It would be handy to know where your bike has turned up.

You've certainly picked a difficult contract to extract information from - 1500 to RAOC Chilwell, 1500 to RASC with a different sequence of census numbers and 422 'probably for RAF Depots' according to the Chilwell records.

From the limited sequences that I've seen, it seems likely that Ariel frame and engine numbers whilst not identical, were issued consecutively. In the absence of a frame number, that is probably the best assumption. Can you see any trace of XG 21380 in the stampings ?

There are photographs of RAF W/NGs in NW Europe during 1944 without panniers or pillion equipment. DME circulars instructing modifications did not apply to the RAF. Headlamp masks would have been fitted, in Europe at least but possibly not in some other theatres.

Unfortunately, there are no records of RAF serials so we can't even tell which contract they come from. There is a good article about the impossibility of chasing service records on Rob van den Brink's WD16H site.

Is this what yours looks like ?

Photobucket

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Sven
Pictures????


I only have photos of the bike totally stripped as I needed to have a reference before parts went off to be stripped, cleaned, etc.
Do you have any photos of this model from late '41/early '42 period?

email (option): angleonart@force81sx.plus.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Rik
It would be handy to know where your bike has turned up.

You've certainly picked a difficult contract to extract information from - 1500 to RAOC Chilwell, 1500 to RASC with a different sequence of census numbers and 422 'probably for RAF Depots' according to the Chilwell records.

From the limited sequences that I've seen, it seems likely that Ariel frame and engine numbers whilst not identical, were issued consecutively. In the absence of a frame number, that is probably the best assumption. Can you see any trace of XG 21380 in the stampings ?

There are photographs of RAF W/NGs in NW Europe during 1944 without panniers or pillion equipment. DME circulars instructing modifications did not apply to the RAF. Headlamp masks would have been fitted, in Europe at least but possibly not in some other theatres.

Unfortunately, there are no records of RAF serials so we can't even tell which contract they come from. There is a good article about the impossibility of chasing service records on Rob van den Brink's WD16H site.

Is this what yours looks like ?

Photobucket


Thanks, Rik.
1/. I have had a reply from IWM who have said that there would be no records kept for vehicles used by the RAF.
2/. There is no trace, whatsoever, of any frame number. This has been ground out, followed by filling smooth before having the following number applied: H3279..........the identity of the bike was to make it appear to be a civilian Red Hunter, when it was acquired!
3/. Have been told that, because the Contract Number C10477 relates it to Chilwell and Ashchurch, it would definitely have been for RAF use. But, reading a historical document about Ariel engine numbers (if I remember correctly!), the letters that read BH means it was for Army, RBH would be for the RAF while NBH would be for Navy use. My engine number is BH11656. This must mean it was for Army use. Doesn't it? Such ambiguity it's amazing, considering it was the most ubiquitous 'bike in WW2!
4/. Yes. The photo looks pretty bang on to mine. Mine doesn't have the head lamp mask, though.

So, any ideas in which direction I should go to put a number on the tank and how I go about 'relating' it to a regiment or division or whatever? Or, do I restore the 'bike without any of that and finish it as a tribute to my dad, when he was part of the SBS?
Regards.

email (option): angleonart@force81sx.plus.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

I've never heard or seen this about the engine number prefix being different for RN or RAF. As far as I know they were all the same (BH).
I'm also under the impression that the later petrol tanks just had the smooth indent for a simple transfer.
Here's my 43 W/NG.
Due to the lack of information regarding the history of these bikes, let alone with no frame number. I think it would be an ideal opportunity to make a tribute to your father.
Who cares even if it's proved that the SBS never used Ariel's? You'll never know who did use your bike anyway.
It's artistic licence!! Ron
Photobucket

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Hey Ron, there is indeed NBH and RBH engine numbers.
There is also three types of tank, earliest had badges (khaki green enamel!) and knee rubbers. The second type had transfers and no knee rubbers, the third type ONE of the knee rubber mounting holes was re fitted for mounting the Vokes filter. The rubber mounted bars were deleted from engine BN23937. All rubber fittings were deleted from around March 1943. Along with two types of top and two types of lower tool boxes, and three changes on toolbox knob. Ariel actually issued a pannier kit so earlier models could be retro fitted with them. Three different fork lengths, three different front guards, the list goes on, yet they all look the same!
Most RAF machines were repainted service green during the war.(a fuel bowser with a bright yellow top was fairly easy to spot from the air!!)
Cheers, Mick.

email (option): mick@motorbikemike.org.uk

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Well I never knew that Mick! No mention of it in Steve's book. I don't think I've ever come across it. A friend of mine has a genuine RN W/NG. I'll have a peek sometime. Mine has the solid mounted bars and rightly or wrongly I have fitted knee grips. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

It is good to hear all this information from you guys. As well as being ambiguous and contradictory I'm finding all this pretty helpful!
Why has nobody ever made a website dedicated to this machine, considering the amount of knowledge that is known? Just like the M20 site or the Norton site? It is probably the reason why I have held off all these years in starting the restoration of it, to be honest!
There will be several things I will need cleared up as I progress but one of the things I've had a reply about is that this bike would never have had any rubber components (ie, gearchange/kickstart ) fitted at all!!! This really does seem wrong when all I have read about is that rubber stopped (on the Ariel) late in '42 when Burma/Japan invasion occurred. Then canvas, or nowt, was used. Can anyone help verify this argument?
Also, thanks for clearing up the pre-fix engine letters for me, Mick. I already had the information to hand about this. Considering that I'm quite new to the 'investigation' side of things I'm quite surprised that this is not common knowledge out there.
Am looking forward to more conversational ambiguousness contradictions.........I mean, detailed information!

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

this site is the wd motorcycle forum it includes all types of military motorcycles even harleys

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Meneer Vandelinde, if you think that you have enough information to fill a website on Ariels accurately then why not create one ?

It's not really completely accurate to call the W/NG 'most ubiquitous' as it was made in considerably smaller numbers than M20s or 16Hs.

Ron made the comment a short while ago that scientists can tell what a dinosaur had for breakfast 20 million years ago but we can't find out some things about motorcycles made within living memory.

The fact is that a small number of enthusiasts are trying to piece together the story of these machines but it is much less easy than we might expect and nothing can be taken for granted or taken as proven until it is corroborated by period sources.

I have little knowledge of Ariels. In fact, I'm focussed on one single 1939 Norton contract and I'm still turning up information that was obviously common knowledge seventy years ago but which has not been recorded. Ploughing through original documents and archives is a time-consuming and expensive business if it involves travel from overseas.

Chris Orchard and Steve Madden did a fantastic job back in 1995 but they were operating in the pre-digital camera era with many archives which either didn't allow or charged for copies. They also had to produce something that a publisher would accept. Since then, additional information has come to light. Some of it is contradictory.

If you have O&M, look at the photo on page 19 (1st edition)...a 1941 W/NG from the RASC part of contract C9387. It clearly has rubbers in all the usual places. However, motorcycles are made to be ridden. If you're more comfortable with or without one, use it accordingly.

It might be a good idea to clarify how motorcycles were distributed during the earlier part of the war.

Production was controlled by the Ministry of Supply (MoS). However, Britain's pre-war army still reflected organisation established during the 19th century.

Army vehicles were supplied to War Office contract.

The RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps) were responsible for supplying first-line units such as armour and infantry. Their main depot was Chilwell.

The RASC (Royal Army Service Corps) were the major user of vehicles and were also responsible for second-line units. They had various depots in Middlesex, including Ashchurch.

The RAF purchased via the Air Ministry (AM)

The Royal Navy purchased via The Admiralty.

It is interesting that O&M don't mention differing numbers for RN and RAF engines but it is perhaps relevant that this prefix appears on engine and not frame numbers. RAOC records don't mention engine numbers at all. Could it be that the prefix was applied to spare engines, much as Nortons used 'AS' (Army Spares ? ) on their spare engines ? Once again, we're trying to reconstruct the past from a few surviving details. It may be (and I don't know) that the majority of W/NGs have this prefix - but all that might prove is that many were rebuilt post-war with NOS engines from Admiralty or Air Ministry stocks.

Even if the engines of machines supplied under RAF contract had a different prefix, I'm not convinced that this would have applied to the 422 machines mentioned as delivered to RAF depots under your contract. They appear to have been machines diverted to the RAF either because they were surplus to War Department requirements or because the RAF had a greater need at that time. If they were initially delivered to an Army depot then they are unlikely to have been stamped later.

There is still a lot of guesswork involved. All we can do is try to err on the side of informed opinion.

...But it's your bike, get it running and get out there on it. Don't put it off because of the lack of a web site telling you how many ribs there should be on a handlebar rubber !

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

I was given these pages that were photo copied from files at the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers (REME) Arborfield (Berks)I think it's an RAF base.

I don't know how clear these images are going to be. The pages are bigger than my scanner so I've had to scan each side and photoshop them back together. If anyone wants the pages I can e-mail then to you. I've also got the same info for a Royal Enfield WD/C

Photobucket

Photobucket

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Very well put Rik as usual. We all learn something new each day.
Yes please Dave. Can you email me those pages on both makes. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

A very interesting thread although I dont own an Ariel. Ron, thats another bike you have! Do you have the full set of WD bikes?

email (option): andrew.honychurch@btinternet.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Well I don't know about a full set? My theme is British forces and I have most of the major makes and models with a few rare ones thrown in.
It's why I could never be an expert on any particular make or model. Also I tend to forget a lot of stuff.
Someone once pointed out to me that you could have quite a large collection if you just concentrated on WD Royal Enfield. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

The number on the bike on the page is C1035307 which is written using a stylish font with a stencil, like Ron has used on his Ariel.
It says from contract 294C/9387
I've got to scan the Enfield pages and as soon as I have I'll send them.

email (option): horror@blueyonder.co.uk

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Thanks, Ron. Most grateful for your input. Looks like I have gained you knowledge about WD machines without even thinking about it! This is what I like about forums: The way it can stir things up and get people sharing their knowledge.
Would you be able to send some detailed pics of your W/NG with me? Even though your model is later than mine I am sure there are things that are pretty similar that will help me in the rebuild process.
Am very much (at present) erring towards setting the bike up as a 'tribute' model. The only thing I can remember my dad saying (he definitely wasn't one for talking about the War, let alone all the things he did and endured!)is about an attachment to the SBS, which was the RASC. Could this be a route to take to base the colours and find regiment markings, etc? I would be totally out of my depth here........
Regards.

email (option): angleonart@force81sx.plus.com

Re: W/NG information/details/help.....anything!

Rik
Meneer Vandelinde, if you think that you have enough information to fill a website on Ariels accurately then why not create one ?

It's not really completely accurate to call the W/NG 'most ubiquitous' as it was made in considerably smaller numbers than M20s or 16Hs.

Ron made the comment a short while ago that scientists can tell what a dinosaur had for breakfast 20 million years ago but we can't find out some things about motorcycles made within living memory.

The fact is that a small number of enthusiasts are trying to piece together the story of these machines but it is much less easy than we might expect and nothing can be taken for granted or taken as proven until it is corroborated by period sources.

I have little knowledge of Ariels. In fact, I'm focussed on one single 1939 Norton contract and I'm still turning up information that was obviously common knowledge seventy years ago but which has not been recorded. Ploughing through original documents and archives is a time-consuming and expensive business if it involves travel from overseas.

Chris Orchard and Steve Madden did a fantastic job back in 1995 but they were operating in the pre-digital camera era with many archives which either didn't allow or charged for copies. They also had to produce something that a publisher would accept. Since then, additional information has come to light. Some of it is contradictory.

If you have O&M, look at the photo on page 19 (1st edition)...a 1941 W/NG from the RASC part of contract C9387. It clearly has rubbers in all the usual places. However, motorcycles are made to be ridden. If you're more comfortable with or without one, use it accordingly.

It might be a good idea to clarify how motorcycles were distributed during the earlier part of the war.

Production was controlled by the Ministry of Supply (MoS). However, Britain's pre-war army still reflected organisation established during the 19th century.

Army vehicles were supplied to War Office contract.

The RAOC (Royal Army Ordnance Corps) were responsible for supplying first-line units such as armour and infantry. Their main depot was Chilwell.

The RASC (Royal Army Service Corps) were the major user of vehicles and were also responsible for second-line units. They had various depots in Middlesex, including Ashchurch.

The RAF purchased via the Air Ministry (AM)

The Royal Navy purchased via The Admiralty.

It is interesting that O&M don't mention differing numbers for RN and RAF engines but it is perhaps relevant that this prefix appears on engine and not frame numbers. RAOC records don't mention engine numbers at all. Could it be that the prefix was applied to spare engines, much as Nortons used 'AS' (Army Spares ? ) on their spare engines ? Once again, we're trying to reconstruct the past from a few surviving details. It may be (and I don't know) that the majority of W/NGs have this prefix - but all that might prove is that many were rebuilt post-war with NOS engines from Admiralty or Air Ministry stocks.

Even if the engines of machines supplied under RAF contract had a different prefix, I'm not convinced that this would have applied to the 422 machines mentioned as delivered to RAF depots under your contract. They appear to have been machines diverted to the RAF either because they were surplus to War Department requirements or because the RAF had a greater need at that time. If they were initially delivered to an Army depot then they are unlikely to have been stamped later.

There is still a lot of guesswork involved. All we can do is try to err on the side of informed opinion.

...But it's your bike, get it running and get out there on it. Don't put it off because of the lack of a web site telling you how many ribs there should be on a handlebar rubber !


Thanks, Rik. Some very interesting points made. At present, it really does look like the build will be based on educational guesswork and erring.But, whatever, don't stop any other details coming through that you hear of. All is welcome and taken on board.
Regards.

email (option): angleonart@force81sx.plus.com

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