Hi everyone, you almost certainly discussed this before, but is it better to stick with a 6v dynamo or go for the altone 12v conversion one ,as I want to fit electronic ign for reliability, also the magneto oil seal modification in tech drawings were dose that locate (inside timing cover or outside, I cant see how it works if the mag has to be shimmed , wouldnt the plate have to have the holes elongatted for adjustment

Mark

email (option): markbrob1@hotmail.com

Hi Mark
There is almost nothing more reliable than a good reconditioned magneto. And if you want brilliant 12V lights get a Honda.
I my view just accept these bikes for what they are, keep them standard, but maintained well.

email (option): gasboy@btinternet .com

Hi Mark..There are some issues with the 'Alton' alternator conversion. It has had mechanical reliability problems in the past and this has lead to more than one series of modifications...it may now be 'right'... it may not be.
Also, in my opinion it is too highly rated electrically..I think 150watts. This has lead to problems with excessive load on the drive train causing premature wear. To achieve an output of 150watts at a typical alternator efficiency of 60% (about the same as a dynamo) requires approx. 2 1/2 times more driving energy than for the lower rated dynamo (a 60 watt 'high output' Lucas unit).
A 60 watt dynamo wired into a system at 6 volts and with the correct wire sizes, a resilvered or new reflector and only running the lights can produce quite a good degree of illumination....
Lucas magnetos are also very reliable..I have always run them and have had relatively few problems. An obvious advantage of electronic ignition is the built in adv/rtd curve...something lacking with a magdyno mag. However, aftermarket electronic ignitions aren't like factory produced ones...they have not benefitted from anything like as much developement as factory units and are only as good as the design and component specifications that have been employed in their construction....you won't have much trouble finding someone who has had one fail.
As I said to a friend of mine who makes them..I know all about the theoretical advantages...but that doesn't add up to much when you are stopped at the side of the road..something that rarely happens with a properly maintained magneto..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Partly taken with a grain of salt, of course, Ian, since "development" in the 1930s and '40s was not near the level of today. Back then it would take weeks or months to "develop" something that today can be done in 15 minutes on a computer. Also, the progress in materials science makes available today materials which they could only have dreamed of back then - although these "newer" or "better" materials are not necessarily used in the making of these components. Finally, alternators are inherently more efficient than generators (i.e. "dynamos")so perhaps your factor of 2½ may be pessimistic. Automotive alternators regularly achieve 80% so the comparison results in a factor of only 1:1.9 for 150 watts, not 1:2.5.

Having said all that, I am still on the fence about getting an Alton alternator until some more user results are in. If anyone has used them, I repeat my request of some months ago, that you post the results of such use.

email (option): jonny.rudge@verizon.net

Hi John, I was offered an Alton free by the owner of a Triumph twin after he had worn out two sets of drive gears...he changed back to a Lucas dynamo.
I agree that modern technology can produce extremely reliable electronic units...you only have to look at any modern car..most of them go to the scrapyard with their original electronic ignition still working....But as I said..this level of durability is not displayed by aftermarket units in my experience..My brother in law, who works in that field, took a failed unit to pieces for me and concluded that it had very much been built to a low price not a high specification. He actually concluded the most expensive part was the enclosure it was mounted in..I'm not a luddite who is against new technology..but I can quote plenty of examples where the 'improved' component is at best only as good as the original and often worse..or isn't really necessary in the first instance. Badly executed 'modern' technology is frequently inferior to well executed 'old' technology and there is plenty of it around...your reluctance to buy an Alton is indicative of that fact..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi guys.

I am using an “Alton” alternator for about a year by now on one of my 2 WM20s.

I must say I only do about 40Km (25 miles) at the most a week,
and only switched the generator with alternator because I overhauled the engine, and thought it was a good opportunity
to use an Alton I had.
When used the original generator and 6V system I had good lights, (LED on back) and good horn,
And have a good 6V system on the other BSA.

One must realize that you only charge what you consume, and if you use reasonable front light (I use 35W halogen)
Basically- this is what you have to cover by charging, and a bit more for 1-2 minutes after you stood at a traffic-lights, for example.
(The Alton does not charge when idle)

When I inquired regarding the alternator,
I got a reply from Paul Hamon from Alton:

“The unit provides 12.5 Amperes and 12 volts at its maximum (150 watts).
But more important than maximum output (which does not mean many as you'll never use it at its maximum),
it provides 6 Amperes 13 volts at 2500 rpm (in the case of a magdyno this is some 2000 rpm engine speed).
This is an output of 78 watts. That allows to use lights on with reasonable 12 volts bulbs and to maintain the charge of the 12 volt battery in the same time. ”

Bottom line-
It is not necessary at all to move to 12V or to an alternator, but-
I can say the fit is easy and fast, the charging is good, and as it is 12V, the current (Amp) for everything is down to half, compare to 6V,
And I think that if you do not load it heavily by using 60W halogen and two 40W search lights, to get to 150W (with rear lamp)(-:) you should be good.

My average charge rate is about 3A on ammeter with lights on, and usually not more than 5-6A (Which makes it around 70W) after standing idle for few minutes with lights.

I did not replace the magneto, and think it is a great set up for the bike.

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Hi Noam..that is interesting. The inference is that if run with a moderate system load the Alton does not cause any problems..though as you say your annual mileage is low (1300 miles per annum). How long have you run these units, what is the total mileage covered so far and do you run with your lights on all the time?
I converted my civilian M21 to 12 volts using a Lucas 60 watt dynamo and an appropriate electronic regulator. On that set up I ran a std. rear lamp and brake light and a 35W halogen headlamp bulb.
The price for this is that higher operating speeds are needed to balance the system. However, I ran that system for approx. 40,000 miles over 7 years without any problems.(though it is not a requirement in the UK to run with 'daytime lights')
My other bikes are all running 6 volt original systems that do not produce quite such good illumination but are quite adequate as long as I don't want to drive flat out at night....
The introduction of 6volt LED headlamp bulbs, which I am told are now available, may make the conversion to 12 volts unecessary as their power consumption is so much lower for a given output.
I guess at the end of the day it is a question of being aware of all the options, considering your requirements and then making your choice...For me, the high cost of the Alton unit and, in my mind at least, the unresolved questions over its long term reliability mean that at present it will probably remain a solution that I don't use...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hi Ian !

As I mentioned, I (Sadly)do not drive the BSA this much,
so I guess I only had about 700 miles with the Alton.

I run this unit for about a year now.

During daylight I do use lights, but I inserted a LED
bulb into the "low" one contact light of the headlight, which has some 4o LEDs on it and that’s what I use at the day.
I also put the same LED type lamp for my sidecar, and a unidirectional red led double contact at rear.
All of these lights hardly even move the ammeter needle when are on-all together..
At night I do use the halogen (Needle drops to left at idle)
But the advantage of using the Alton is that you recover from discharge into charge on very low engine revs.
The minute you put the bike into first gear and start to move- you are charging.
I know that "Hawker electrical" sell a field and an armature which supposed to be a 12V conversion for Lucas E3L dynamo.
If it really has more wraps to the field and/or armature, it can be a perfect and cheaper solution, as it would look original, but will reach 14V and start charging in lower revs.

should you need any more info, tests, photos, measurements-
Just ask hare or mail me

Noam.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Two Years ago I bought a plunger A10 that had recently been fitted with Pazon electronic ignition. The previous owner had fitted it because it was cheaper than reconditioning the magneto.
I was not happy with it. It did not matter how the timing was adjusted, it would always be too advanced when you kick started it. It would kick back and try to break my leg. When I could get it to start it was not very advanced when running. I obtained a spare magneto but sold the bike before fitting it. Not too sure about plunger A10's, wierd handling.
Paul

Hi Paul..I know what you mean about plunger handling! Wear in the plunger columns and bushes has a detrimental effect. The only thing that prevents the plunger units working independently of each other, thus 'tilting' the wheel is the large diameter wheel spindle fitted to these models.
The result is a pronounced 'wobble' of the back end, particularly on long bends with a poor surface.
The last one I had I removed the plunger springs and fitted spacers under the covers...as a rigid frame it handled much better!
Interesting about the Pazon advance characteristics...I don't know how many degrees of advance these units have. Certainly less than a manual system but not so sure about the comparison with an auto advance unit...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hello Ian
Sorry this is getting a bit off topic. The Plunger A10 frame has a shorter distance between wheels. Mine had modern tyres and would drop into corners like a modern motorcycle (almost). It was when you accelerated hard or went fast it all went wrong. It's a shame BSA could not stick to that frame geometry for the later swing arm A10.

The pazon needed a good battery to work. Would blow fuses occasionally (may have needed bigger fuse). I understand that electronic ignition tends to draw alot of current?

I will never buy a restored motorcycle again with a mixture of non original updates.
Paul

Hi Paul..Can't say I found similar handling problems with the Plunger A10s I have had..The only noticeable thing was the action of the back end, shared incidentally, by my MK2 Ariel Square Four which had a plunger/Anstey link back end.
Of course at this distance out from manufacture each bike has its own combination of wear, tyres, pattern parts,frame distortion, owner repairs etc. etc. and that tends to make each one a little different...For example,I have ridden multiple examples of the WD M20 and they all seem to handle differently, with some conforming to the characteristics I get on with and some not.
Non original updates are a whole different subject, thought out well and properly fitted they can improve a bike no end from the riding and performance point of view...if that is what your aim is...Some people prefer to ride the bike 'as it comes' and experience what is arguably a more 'genuine' impression of what the bike was designed to be.
Others will take the basic bike and seek to produce their own idea of the perfect 'version' of the original and that can range from mild modifications to extreme engineering.
At what point you entirely lose the original concept is a debatable point but that thinking is the basis of all 'specials'.
The risk inherent in that line of thought though is that the alterations will not be well thought out and executed and/or that sub standard replacement components will be used...resulting in a bike that does not perform as well as the original in one area or another.
I think, in principle, there is no reason to discount upgrades out of hand unless you want total originality...the key thing is to select and fit them yourself.
In my opinion, the design, quality, reliability and reasoning behind many after market 'upgrades' is questionable...but that is another subject!!...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Hello Ian
My A10 came from a dealer. I paid enough for it to have bought a 2 year old Street triple. It was restored and shiny and was fitted with the latest electronic ignition which totally replaced the magneto assembly.

I thought I would be able to jump on it and ride. It was very difficult to start, broke down on my first ride. It would soot up plugs in 10 miles. I bought them in bulk for a while.

The problem I have with modified motorcycles is not knowing what you have bought. Over time I descovered that the electronic ignition was made by Pazon, the carburettor was a concentric with the wrong jet and slide. I had no idea what had been done inside the engine, but suspected increased compression because of the ankle breaking tendancies.

Compare this to a Matchless G80s I was running at the same time. It was very rusty, had not been on the road since 1977, was very worn but was totally original. Even with the tappets so tight that it had little compression it would start first kick.
Paul

A familiar story Paul...and to be honest any bike that has been worked on badly, whether standard or not, is potentially a nightmare. Non standard additions merely add extra layers of potential problems and as you say are harder to work out..
Actually, I feel sorry in advance for the person that gets my B33 should I suddenly go 'tits up'...that has been heavily and extensively modified over the years, both mechanically and structurally. I like to think it has all been well thought out and executed and well proven but nevertheless it will take some working out!
Many years ago I concluded that the only way to be sure about any bike (unless you have x ray vision) is to rebuild it yourself..on that basis I have worked my way through a number of basket cases which ultimately became reliable and enjoyable bikes....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

interesting thoughts boys, i just thought electronic nowadays with advancement in technology would be fine, i have seen the pazone but never owned one, i have boyer electroinc on my b50 and b44, my b44 starts great but b50 is a bitch,im not sure if i stay original how easy it would be getting use to the manual advance /retard

mark

email (option): markbrob1@hotmail.com

No real problems there Mark..in practice you don't have to use it very much and once you get the feel for it initially...that's it!..I had a B50 Gold Star and a B50 MX...the MX was a right git to start and would punish you severely for any lack of enthusiasm when doing it!..I also had an interesting B44..it was first registered by BSA and stated in the logbook under 'Model'..'Built by BSA from special parts'.It went very well and did have quite a few non standard cycle parts but I never had to strip the engine while I owned it, so didn't get to see the really interesting bits..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com