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Indian repro carriers

I have just received a repro carrier from India and it differs from the illustration shown on e-bay, for a start there is no arked cross member across the two parallel tubes near the first bend also there is a flat strap that goes across the carrier at the rear, close to the pannier bolt hole. So I am not too pleased with my purchase and have contacted the supplier to let him know of my dissapointment, this has cost me £100 roughly in total with carriage. Has anyone else had any similar experiance.


TTJohn

email (option): Jomichael@aol.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

this is the third time in as many weeks i have heard bad things about this guy .not good

email (option): butchtheplasterer@hotmail.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

I bought a rear carrier long time ago and it was so light,
That I did not even bother to install it.

I doubt if it can support itself on WM20 rattle..

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

Borrow an original take it to your local Blacksmith Welder or Fab shop.
In the current climate they would be glad for some extra work load even if it just one offs.
I've made them for people in the past its easy peasy to make.
Brass Wing nuts are easy to source as well as the coach bolts.
All can be made as to original spec.
So do some digging and save money.
Lot of the junk from India is just fit for the bin.
As with the Volks filters mudguards tool boxes etc.
Clutch plates never again..had to bin them for the B31 total disaster send them back to Dragonfly.
Support your local Smiddy or Fab shop and give them some work instead of throwing money to these sweat shops probably young kids welding them up.

Support your local Industry!
They could even make a large batch to keep the price down and kick away the shit that's coming in from these nig nog countries

Re: Indian repro carriers

Graemeyboy, couple of points. Firstly, even in the current economic climate, I doubt you'll find many, if any, local blacksmiths/smithys who can knock up a set of pannier frames at a competitive price - or even a NON-competitive price that most M20 owners can really afford.

By all means support local industry. I'm all for it. But most people in this climate can't afford to work for less than a reasonable rate, and blacksmiths and engineering shops have basic costs associated with their trades. Of course we should all buy only quality parts, and cheap stuff is always expensive in the long run. But life's usually a bit more complicated than that. And anyway, some of the Indian stuff is, from all accounts, actually okay.

Next, if it's so cheap and simple, maybe you could knock up a few frames and flog 'em on the forum? See if you can undercut Indian labour.

Lastly, as much as I loathe political correctness, maybe you should ease up on the "nig-nog" stuff on the forum? One or two of the members/visitors come from India and probably won't appreciate your comments. What do you say?

P.S. For some of these kids, if they don't work, they starve. It's a cruel world.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine,com

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hi Danny.
You are correct with your comment, and I often thought about including ALL Indian goods as bad must be doing injustice to some.

BTW, as far as I remember, my rear carrier was not Indian made.
I was talking about general bad quality product generally.

email (option): noam10@gmail.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

Danny!!
All depends what neck of the woods your from?
Looks like your not in a good area for getting homers done for a couple of pints etc. Or in the know??
No probs up our way plenty of Fab shops and Blacksmiths Agricultural Engineers and the Oil and Gas.
All glad to take on work specials,customs etc etc.
Plus its Brit made with a smile
Price is always right as well,anything from sheet metal to stainless offcuts etc etc.
Good scrap yard here as well where the Oil companies use as well all new offcuts,stainless fasteners etc.
I will make a couple of sets and see what response there is??
Carrier as well few other parts stays etc.
Like Iron Bru... Made in Scotland!!!
Back Britain and its manufacturing!! always!!
Not friggin India!!

About political correctness.
While our country is being taken over by the Muslim brotherhood!!!??

Change it on May vote far Right vote BNP.

Re: Indian repro carriers

Some good points raised...Everything I get manufactured is manufactured in the UK and I try to get it made locally if possible to support local businesses. The fact of the matter is though that far eastern economies have much lower labour rates and at times it is just impossible to produce in the UK at a competetive price.
It's why nearly all major companies have factories in the far east or locations with a similar labour cost.
A 'one off' produced by a helpful local fabricators is one thing..ask them to produce 50 of something and they will need to apply commercial rates.
Furthermore in a world where you can buy a £25 Chinese microwave people have got used to many goods being relatively cheap and they will consistently go for the lowest priced item available..When faced with a cheap and a more expensive option, where the latter is of a better quality, the majority will still go for the cheaper option.
If people are going to demand better quality then generally they will have to face up to the fact that will cost more..doesn't it always?
I think in the current global market place and with the demise of British manufacturing the need to use foriegn made products is unavoidable.
There wouldn't be many complaints either if the price and quality was good...how many BSAs are running around with Japanese bearings, Italian pistons, Taiwanese electrical components and dare I say it...Indian Dunlop block tread tyres?
The Indians do make some perfectly serviceable parts..most of the pattern valves made for M20s come from them and they are perfectly serviceable.
The problem is that they also produce a large amount of poor quality parts as well and it is hard to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'.
British manufacturers can be pretty bad as well...I have paid to produce scrap components on more than one occassion from suppliers who just didn't work to an acceptable standard.
It is not, unfortunately, such a clearly 'black and white' world...you have to buy from foriegn producers when the price and quality are good and the parts are not available here and try to choose British manufacturers when they come up with the right deal.
I'd love to buy 100% British...but it isn't possible in the current environment and no amount of loyalty or jingoism is going to change that in the short term...Ian

Re: Indian repro carriers

Graemey, you've convinced me. Send me a new rear carrier and rack for my M20 and I'll send you the price of a couple of pints of Irn Bru.


Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, I think you'll find that India is a Hindu nation. On a related note, it's worth remembering that the Indians served Britain well through numerous major conflicts including WW1 and WW2, with a reputation for being great engineers and mechanics (the air force, in particular, loved 'em). Maybe if we were prepared to pay a little more, we'd get a much better product.

email (option): dannydefazio@sumpmagazine.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hi All,
Just thought I would add my 2 bobs worth.
I am no fan of political correctness but I am also not a fan of rudeness so toning down some of the comments would be a good thing.
As to Indian made products I can only speak as I find. I run a 1981 350 Bullet as my everyday transport and source most of my spares from India. The quality is good as well as the price. I would use a well known British Supplier of Enfield parts more but the price they charge is more than double that from India and the product is generally from the same source.
To a certain extent price can indicate quality but it is not a very accurate way of measuring anything.
Well, the suns out and the carb needs adjusting so I shall bid you all ta ta!
Regards
Clive

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hi Clive...I agree..some Indian products are fine..and some are not. A higher purchase price isn't a guarantee of good quality either..it may just indicate a bigger mark up (or an extra 'middle man')as in the case of your Enfield parts.
However, a higher specification part made in the UK is nearly always going to cost more than a poorly, or even well made, Indian part. That is just a reflection of the disparities between the two societies and economies.
The origin of a component in the final analasys is fairly irrelevant at the point of purchase (putting to one side any political views)..it should be primarily about the serviceability of the part with value for money as a relevant consideration.
Going back to the original posting the complaint was about a mismatch between what was described and what was recieved..and that mismatch can and does occur wherever you source your parts from..Ian

Re: Indian repro carriers

Well here's my 2 cents worth.Graemeyboy have you ever been to 'nig nog' country? If you haven't and you ever do visit I would be happy to take you around , if I'm back home from work that is. It would be a real eye opener for sure. There's a lot of stuff going on over here and you'd be surprised at what these 'kids' turn out. I won't get into anymore of this cuz this is a M20/WD forum and flaming isn't the done thing on here. All I will say is.....people don't thing twice about spending as you put it 'money on these sweat shops-where- probably young kids are welding them up' when they want stuff because it's the only source-I sure don't see any Uk made panniers-and because it's CHEAP.By all means get people to buy stuff made in the UK but don't go using the kids as an excuse to get people to so. Oh, yes another thing-Is Iron Bru... Made in Scotland all that you can quote as an example of a well made thing!!!
To set the record right, India isn't a Muslim or Hindu country-it's a secular country where all religions, races and ethnicities are tolerated. As to your country being taken over by the 'muslim brotherhood'-lets not forget what Britain did to India not to mention half of the rest of the world- lets just call it reverse colonization-just suck it up cuz like it or not you're gonna have to live with it .

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hank
to your country being taken over by the 'muslim brotherhood'-lets not forget what Britain did to India not to mention half of the rest of the world- lets just call it reverse colonization-just suck it up cuz like it or not you're gonna have to live with it .


I wasn't going to get involved with this thread but your comments are a bit of an insult to those of us whose ancestors were digging ditches barefoot and submitted to the indignities of hiring fairs whilst a small number of the wealthy enriched themselves around the world, much as they continue to do.

If it is 'reverse colonisation' then we have just as much right to take up arms and fight back as those colonised in the 18th and 19th Centuries did. That's just the problem. Political correctness and several generations of do-gooders have ensured that the indiginous population doesn't even feel it can speak out anymore.

The frustrations of the disenfranchised natives are not helped by the smug pronouncements of bleeding-heart liberals who cannnot or will not appreciate the fears that their multi-cultural society (My Arse !) has created.

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hear Hear Greamyboy
I'm right up there with you,screw the P/C clowns,this is the UNITED KINGDOM, not anything else,wee are right to look after our own,as for the "JINGLIES",buy from them and you get rubbish.

email (option): Glesaman@tiscali.co.uk

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hank
Your a Turkey,I have been there,worked there and got several "T SHIRTS",seen it all,and the UK will be going the same way,if we accommodate them,so where have you been ?

email (option): Glesaman@tiscali.co.uk

Re: Indian repro carriers

Calm down..calm down..the 'Muslim Brotherhood' aren't taking over anything..theres only about a hundred of them . Britain has never been fertile ground for any extremist group..either political or religious, with the possible exception of the British Union of Fascists who were doing quite well until the war broke out.(they still hold the 'record' for the largest political gathering ever held in the UK).
I don't think the Indians represent any particular threat..other than the fact they keep selling us sub standard motorcycle parts..which coincidentally is what we were discussing. There's not much point in allowing this discussion to deteriorate into a succession of rants about the state of our society (and theirs), particularly when many of the comments are exagerated,factually incorrect and expressed at a personal level..Ian

Re: Indian repro carriers

Tommy is right.
Turkeys.
Hank go and fly your Kite!!with your opinion!!

Been and worked in all the countries and worked most of the world recently Mumbai ( Bombay ) eye opener for sure, been inside there work shops as well,still shaking my head!!
Support the UK Industry when ever.
If more of you amateur mechanics did some investigating and digging.
Smaller companies would be glad of the work,might be slightly higher price.
Being Made in Britain should say it all.
Sign of Quality.

Re: Indian repro carriers

Got a television?..a washing machine?...a camera?... a phone?...a car?..or a hundred other things? I'll bet they are all produced abroad....We all support foriegn manufacturers because there is no longer a choice in most cases...and that is the case with many motorcycle products..bearings, electrical components, tyres,etc. etc.
Most of the companies you might think are British aren't British owned..supporting British industry is a fantasy..there's hardly anything left to support.
People should have thought about that when they decided to buy a foriegn car or any of the other foriegn products they CHOSE to buy in preference to UK manufactured goods...but of course the truth is they thought about the cost and the quality and our manufacturers weren't delivering on either count...
If British manufactured goods had been so good they would all still be in business today...the fact is the companies were generally inefficient and their products were often poorly made and expensive..and THAT is why consumers chose to buy from the Japanese, Germans,French, Italians..in fact just about anybody rather than 'Buy British'.
British Industry suffered for years under the twin yokes of under investment and an excessive level of industrial disputes and beyond a certain point consistently produced out dated, poor quality products...the motorcycle industry represents a great example of this. On the whole they got what was coming to them when they failed to rise to the challenge of foriegn manufacturing. If you want an example close to home of how it should be done look to the Germans.. they still have a manufacturing industry...Wake up for God's sake, and face up to the reality that we are where we are because that's where we deserve to be and it's no ones fault but our own....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

My apologies if some of my comments cut too close to the bone-but Graeme's comments did as well.
Cheers from the Turkey who rides an M20

Re: Indian repro carriers

many years ago i got in touch with Henk who sent me datailed picture of the carrier and with some scrap tubing and a cheap mig welder which ended up in the bin . a lot of time and effort heaps of grinding down crappy welding and lots of paint i managed to make one .if you can its worth the effort .

email (option): butchtheplasterer@hotmail.com

Indian repro carriers

Well done Butch!!!! Thats what im talking about improvisation scrap metal motivation and effort.
Its not rocket science!!! self satisfaction as well doing it.
Over the next few months i will be making them and some other parts.
Just for the fun of it i will stamp them WD Pattern Made in Scotland to wind people up!!!
Manufacturing still exists North of the Boarder!were busy here doing it all!!!
I will post photos when there done.

Re: Indian repro carriers

I look forward to seeing the photos downunder we have to improvise a little but that makes it more fun go for it.

email (option): butchtheplasterer@hotmail.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

Hi All,
I have been doing a lot of thinking in the hours of Royal Wedding Television about this and Ian's comments;
'British Industry suffered for years under the twin yokes of under investment and an excessive level of industrial disputes and beyond a certain point consistently produced out dated, poor quality products...the motorcycle industry represents a great example of this.'
...set me thinking.
This I agree is the commonly quoted line for why British Industry failed but it is much more complex than this.
To say British Industry was not inovative and investing in new products is not really true. The problem was nobody was buying them. Look at Velo with the LE, an everyman motorcycle that nobody bought in droves. Ariel Leader, good bike, poor sales from an overly conservative public.
The best example of British inovation is the De Haviland Comet - cutting edge technology - in fact pushing the envelope too far, but foriegn manufacturers learnt from our innovations. If Boeing had produced jet airliners at this early stage of technology theirs would have fallen out of the sky just as often as ours.
The problem for British Industry was and always will be a small home market which makes production uncompetitive- a country such as America, India, China, etc has a huge home market to produce economies of scale.
Add to this small home market a consevative buying public who won't move with the times when it come to new products and the problems are magnified.
The major failing with British Industry was poor advertising. Have a look at the adverts that British Motorcycle manufacturers tempted the buying public with and you will see what I mean. My favourite is the Ariel Advert from the 1950's with the tag line 'The Happy Medium' hardly likely to set pulses racing. And this has been our problem for years. You can sell a lousy product if you market it well - Everything built by British Leyland was rubbish, but an Alfa Romeo? well that just had latin appeal. The fact the Alfa Sud was a rusting bucket of bolts did'nt matter a damn!
Well, I must end because if any of you have read this far you deserve a medal.
I shall just go back to finishing off my new book 'Whatever Happened to the British Motorcycle Industry - It is no way as simple as you would think@.
Regards
Clive

Re: Indian repro carriers

i'm not so sure;
i was a young draughtsman carrying out tech/ spec checks for dowty's in the early 70's...i had to try and standardise nuts bolts threads etc to try to economise and assist in streamlining production. dear heaven what a lash up...engineers refused to alter threads for no reason, and when my contract was due for renewal i was offered an extension. the unions blocked it insisting it had to become a permanent post...as a result i was out of work...

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

Hi guys,

We have the same problem over here in the States. Cheap crap from China, India, Mexico and all points inbetween.

Like Chris B, I'm an out of work designer/draftsman who has found a niche market making tools for British cars. www.britishtool.com in case you are interested.

So, it seems reasonable that with the talent we have in this very select group, we can make runs of select items we need. I know some lads have made springs, battery cases etc.......... Thank you Henk and others!

I'm currently working on fender and pannier stays as they are pretty easy. Perhaps this week I'll draw the pannier racks on Autocad. I've already drawn about 75 parts for the M20 on Autocad. More in future. Some I'm making just for me, but will make up for others as I get better at it.

I have a very nice CNC shop who does great work for a reasonable price. There are also tinknockers I have worked with in the past. I know in UK, there are plenty of specialists makers of certain things like mudguards. In the States we have a guy nicknamed "Iron John" who has an english wheel making mudguards for Matchless bikes.

There is another way...... Lets get together and take care of our own needs. All that energy from bitching can be better used. AND....... we will know it's quality stuff with the money going to us.

Cheers,

Robb

email (option): britool51@hotmail.com

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

Hi All
Some very interesting comments Ron and I have some excellent manufacturing close to us Dave Hayward rings a bell ron

I like the comment with regards to the UK and its members if you dont like it GO HOME

email (option): john@fieldandrurallife.com

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

I can't say I agree entirely with Clives comments. The examples quoted of 'innovation' were indeed innovative..the Ariel Arrow was 'bike of the year' at least twice and sold well in the first few years. It was a very forward thinking design from Val Page but as usual after the initial effort no further developement was carried out to progressively improve the model and gradually sales tapered off.
The LE Velo was well thought out and well engineered (perhaps too well for an 'economy' model)...the reason it didn't sell was that it was too expensive for what it was.
As for a small home market there is some validity in that argument..but don't forget we voluntarily broke our traditional ties with the Commonwealth in our rush to get into the Common Market...thus reducing our ability to export.
I don't think it is right to lay the blame at the feet of the consumer either, they had bought British products for years..why would they suddenly stop doing so?
The arrival of Japanese motorcycles on our shores brought the lack of forward developement within our industry sharply into focus (I remember it well)..they had oiltight, overhead cam engines that were more reliable, faster and vibrated less than the home grown product...and the warning signs had been there for a number of years following the domination of the Japanese, German and Italian marques in the TT and other races from the late 50s/early 60s onwards.
Where were the British fours, sixes and two strokes that were needed to counter this challenge?
I experienced British manufacturing attitudes at first hand...the company I worked for manufactured machine tools. Component parts were produced on outdated machinery and the result was high levels of defective parts..so high that they couldn't afford to scrap it all. The result was the parts got used and reliability suffered as a consequence.
The key to quality manufacture is to invest in the latest machine tools..scrap percentages are then very low and it is feasible to scrap these small amounts of defective parts, thus ensuring the final product is always within the design tolerances..and that is what the Japanese and Germans did.
It is fair to say the Italians didn't follow this ethic either and perhaps their marketing was better but in reality they never achieved high volumes of sales in the UK at that time.
I don't think across a range of manufactured goods...but lets take cars and motorcycles as an example..that anybody could argue we made a good quality, up to date product that matched our major competitors through the 60s ,70s and 80s.
The buying public realised this soon enough and purchased from manufacturers that gave them the best deal...and they were mainly foriegn companies....Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

Hi Again,
I really must get out more and talk to people face to face as I am really enjoying bouncing ideas around.
Ian, I do agree with you that my argument was too simplistic but space on a forum like this precludes a long discussion - just floating ideas really, but your comment on the Commenwealth break does neatly round things up in a way.
As I said, we had a small conservative home market, but we did have a large commenwealth market but this was largely as conservative as the home market so old designs sold better than new and they could keep them running with a level of ingenuity that sometimes beggers belief. So new products were not bought reducing possible income and spawned a whole load of industries in the sub continent to keep old British machines on the road. These industries are now exporting back to us to keep our old machines on the road in a coals to Newcastle sort of way but we are more demanding a consumer than they are probably used to.
Very rarely do you get a neat pay off like that in life!
Sorry if my enjoyment has bored the pants of you all but it has been fun.
Regards
Clive

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

Clive, why do you think that Ian sets his tent up at all the big jumbles ? He's not bothered about selling, he just enjoys the discussions !

Re: Indian repro carriers/ANOTHER WAY

..You're right Rik...I enjoy meeting up and talking as much as the 'business' end of it. I certainly don't get bored by these type of discussions, theres more to bikes than just the nuts and bolts...As well as the military history there is the history of the companies themselves and the markets they operated in.
We all have our ideas about what happened within the British Motorcycle Industry and why, ultimately, they failed. It's a fascinating subject and very complex with a multitude of factors coming into play. As Clive points out it's far too big a subject for this forum in reality but it makes an interesting discussion. As for the motorcycle buying public...they are now more demanding at the reliability level but are still very conservative. The basic design of the motorcycle has remained unaltered for decades. Things such as automatic gearboxes,monocoque chassis,hub center steering, turbo chargers and rotary engines have all been offered by manufacturers but have not met with success...we still like our manual boxes,tele forks, beam or tubular frames, carbs or injection and pistons and valves..Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

Re: Indian repro carriers

This thread started off about carriers (presumably WM20) - Adrian Crossan was making pannier frames which of course have wider appeal as they also fit interesting motorcycles.

http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3155626639&frmid=16&msgid=1146865&cmd=show

Re: Indian repro carriers

We started off talking about a rear rack..it was just called a carrier ...Ian

email (option): ian@wright52.plus.com

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