BSA WM 20, always for sale in France

http://www.leboncoin.fr/motos/181268167.htm?ca=6_s

I'd love to buy that. Anyone any suggestions how I'd get it from France to Ireland?

You're taking the pi** right? just joking, good enough suggestion, but looking into the boat prices, fuel, accommodation etc, I'm looking at the best part of £700 quid, at least, and the sailing times from Rosslare to Cherbourg mean I would need to leave Wednesday, return some time on Sunday thus missing 4 days work as I work Saturdays too. Factor all that in and I'd almost be as well buying one over here even at the current inflated prices! I have one at the minute that I'm restoring, but its looking lonely and would rather have another one.

hey glen where are you?
i'm coming into rosslare in a while, so could easily get it across, however dhl shipped mine over from cork to truro for £140...

I contacted this guy and he speaks as much english as I do french. I'd love to buy this bike and add it to my stable but I just don't know even how to go about it. Chris, If you want to contact me with suggestions please feel free!

email (option): glenn_mullan@postmaster.co.uk

I nearly bought this last month, he's down in Bordeaux, said it was an early deluxe and the story was that it went to Germany after the BEF got whooped, however the frame numbers checked out to be a '43, the engine is '40 & seized but probably not badly, its a bitsa, would make a lovely project, he's restoring a 30's 350 Rudge and would swap parts from the price. THere are some parts in a box aswell, headlight I think but no speedo.

His name is Paul email lcf500@orange.fr
would take a small deposit to hold it and I have his address if wanted (best email me)

email (option): kit247@hotmail.com

Hi, I couldn't resist buying it, althought hesitated for a while because of its mixed up parts. The frame and forks, saddle, sumpplate are indeed from 43, the rest from 40.

Luckily it is all in very good order, not abused and not a lot of wear. But it was the tank which pulled me over. On the left side there is an original number (C4123827) and on the right a red box with a 2 in it and a white rhino above that. From previous threads I know that the rhino belonged to the 1st Armoured Div., but what about the red 2 ?? anyone knows?? I hope this tank matches with engine WM20-10831 which came with it and would like to know the original framenumber.




If anyone can tell me more about these parts, please let me know and many thanks to Patrick for posting the bike in the first place. , Regards, Michiel

My goodness, Michiel, that's magnificent. What a great find. Is the census number clear ? Once again, it confirms the 1940 period practice of only applying to one side.

What you have there very much reflects armoured division practice (1st Armoured, as you say) and it warrants more detailed investigation (You're not going to paint it over straight away are you ?)

A hollow square usually indicates 'B' Company and the use of red normally relates to the senior regiment within a brigade. It gets a bit complicated here as there is no record of which unit '2' relates to but Michael Taylor seemed to think that it was kept as a spare for reconaissance purposes (there was no official recce element at this time).

Would you mind if I re-posted your photograph on another forum ? Armour is not really my speciality.

I think that the tank and engine are likely to belong to each other and the frame number would have matched the engine.

There is a confusing late batch of 100 census numbers on this contract (C4137042 - 4137141) but if this mirrors Norton practice, they sometimes had to go back and allocate numbers to machines that has slipped out of sequence.

If we take the batch of numbers which includes yours (C4123773 - 4125995), your number C4123827 is 2168 before the end - subtract this from WM20 13000, the highest frame number on the contract and we arrive at WM20 10832. I think that points strongly in the direction of them being original.

It might be possible to extrapolate further detail from the Key Cards, relating to non-rebuilt post-war survivors.

Hi Michiel

So far I've found 24 machines listed in the postwar keycards from this block with matching frame and tank serial numbers. So acording to this information WM20 10831 does match C4123827.

And thats a very nice tank you have there Rob.

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Hi Rik and Rob,

Thank you both for the information. Glad to hear the engine matches the tank, so I have to find an early frame with the same number and condition...

Rik, of course you may post the picture on another forum if you think it will bring up some more info, here is the one from the other side.



Regards, Michiel

Could that be a patch of yellow gas paint above the number?

email (option): robmiller11@yahoo.co.uk

Definitely early-war gas detector paint Rob. It looks to me as well as if there are signs of Light Green No.5 disruptive on the tank.

Thanks for the 'OK' Michiel. I didn't want to plaster your images over the internet without asking. I hope and expect that there will be further information coming.

What is interesting is that the marking is very much of the type carried by the armoured vehicles suggesting that this one was used at the 'sharp end'.

Is there any sign of a movement number painted on top of the tank ? Probably not as they were more often on the mudguards.

Hello Rik and Rob

Never heard of gas detection paint, but found a writing of Steve Madden about it, very interesting.

Can't find numbers on the top of the tank, there is very faintly a white ellipse just below the fuel cap, I suppose this was the BSA logo. There is also a bit more yellow paint on top in front of the fuelcap.





On the front mudguard I found no numbers but 2 wide (3 cm) stripes of dark yellow paint painted over by green. Hope you can see it on the picture. I guess these stripes were also used as gas detection?



I would be surprised if these bikeparts were used on the 'sharp edge' because of the condition. Only a few minor dents in the tank and no damage at all to the engine and gearbox, but it could explain the later frame.

Thanks again, Regards, Michiel

Michiel, Those colour bars on the mudguard are most interesting. They are not gas detection and the yellow is coincidence. Are you able to clean them up and check the colours exactly ?

For ease of identification when shipping and to ensure that each unit got their own equipment back, they were each issued with a three or four digit 'Embarkation' or 'Movement' code and each single digit had a unique colour so the dockworkers could see at a distance from the colours what the number was. (A simple example would be if '1' was red and '2' blue - red/blue/red would be '121')

I don't have a full list of these (but I might know someone who does)

The markings were usually painted over on arrival but 1st Armoured were still arriving when the action started and don't seem to have had time.

When I said 'at the sharp end', I meant theoretically - the bike might have been abandoned at the docks without ever seing a shot fired.

Is the engine in good condition ?

Hello Rik,

Interesting, I cleaned up the yellow bars and found a brown bar in between and some numbers too!.

Hard to read but I would say 0080 on the side and 006? on the front. The bars are painted on top of the numbers





Would be nice to figure out if the mudguards also could match with the tank and engine.

The condition of the engine looks good from the outside. I haven't cleaned it yet but no broken fins on cylinder and a very small one broken on the head. I've cleaned up the gearbox and that looks very good, silver painted, no damage and hardly used. So it looks like it was abandoned at the docks..

I won't be able to check the forum for a while, this evening we travel to Stafford to enjoy another great jumble in nice weather

Your interest and information is very much appreciated, regards, Michiel

I have put out an official request to withdraw the Old English Sheep Dogs that are normally in place to repel Dutch raiders. This year two Dutch guys are taking me to Stafford and I wouldn't want to end up amidst the carnage. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Thanks Ron, that's a comforting thought, I will keep my heavy boots at home. Good luck, Michiel