KBGS Old Boys' Forum

A place to discuss Keighley Boys' Grammar School. 


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KBGS Old Boys' Forum
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english

Following on the recent discipline theme, it always confused me why the powers that be made us read " Tale of two cities", Henry IV, twentieth century poets and the like.
I was a typical 11/12 year old lad yearning for the likes of "Treasure Island "
Consequently discipline in Percy Peart's class consisted of dictation at stupid speeds to cause total chaos.
It put me off reading for years yet now I appreciate Shakespeare and the like.
I ended up teaching for a living and now I see the results of letting students write as words sound.
Would you believe a student wrote jenjen for changing?
This student was on a HND course by the way.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-63

Current location (optional) north wales

Re: english

Why do we spell the word phonetic with ph?

Re: english

why is "dyslexic" such a difficult word to spell?

Re: english

The answer to Trevor's question is that 'ph' was used in Latin to represent the Greek letter 'phi'. Latin borrowed very many words from the Greek and many of these have carried over into all languages descended from Latin, including English. In English, most (though not quite all) words which have an initial 'ph' originate in Greek (via Latin). Some of the Romance Languages - Italian, for example, that which is closest to Latin - oddly enough never adopted the combination of p + h and used only 'f' (as in 'fonetica'). I can only hazard a guess as to why English retained it: very likely because in the British Isles Latin was a well-established written language for many centuries before English emerged as a written language. The early writers of English were the same literate classes who also used Latin and who not only imported many anglicised versions of Latin words into the expanding English lexicon but retained the Latin spellings of those words(minus, of course, their case and verbal suffix inflections). These orthographic traditions were established in the late fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth centuries - long before the masses were able to read and write (20th century?) and thus influence English orthography in any way. If you are looking for someone to 'blame' for the retention of the 'ph' then the Medieval Church and Legal profession are the undoubted culprits.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 51-58

Current location (optional) Cottingham

Re: english

Was that a rhetorical question,Trevor?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Indeed it was Alec, but I do find the development of language fascinating and I certainly appreciate Doug's explanation. There's always something one can learn.

Re: english

Sorry, Alec and Trevor, but the question as framed was not 'rhetorical'. It may have been asked flippantly (or is that 'phlippantly'?) or without any real interest in an answer; but to be a rhetorical question it would have to have the (presumed, only possible) answer strongly implied within the question itself. Trevor's question carries no such implication. Yawn!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 51-58

Current location (optional) Cottingham

Re: english

Mmm, correct me if I'm wrong but phonetic spelling is spelling as the word 'sounds' meaning that, phonetically speaking, one would expect to spell phonetic as fonetic.
I would have thought that was obvious in the question but...I'm still learning.

Cheers

Re: english

So, what is an occasional table the rest of the time?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Reverting to the initial post, I've noticed an overwhelming tendency for younger Australians to pronounce aitch as haitch. Is this trend apparent in the UK? Reason I ask is Malcolm, in his final sentence, refers to 'a HND course' rather than the traditional 'an HND course'

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-57

Current location (optional) MELBOURNE

Re: english

Yes, it used frequently over here, and when I correct people I'm accused of being pedantic - so I don't bother anymore!!

Re: english

I remember from childhood local people pronouncing 'aitch' as 'haitch' - it always struck me as funny, because we don't sound 'h' in Yorkshire-speak!

Re: english

If it were not for the fact that Paul mentions specifically 'younger people' mispronouncing 'h' in Australia I should have thought that the 'haitch' was attributable to Irish immigrants. It is standard Irish pronunciation, certainly in the Republic.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 51-58

Current location (optional) Cottingham

Re: english

In Australia, it is called the Catholic aitch, mainly because many of the original Catholic school teachers were Irish nuns. The sin was passed on to the succeeding generations.

I also have problems with phonetic spelling. If anyone is interested, there is an excellent book by Simeon Potter, "Our Language", Penguin Books, 1950, that explains a lot whilst being a good read.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Haworth now Blue Mountains in Australia

Re: english

I get irritated when 'uneducated' people mispronounce words of French origin. The two classic ones are 'Bouquet' and 'Lingerie' which seem increasingly to be pronounced 'Bowkay' and 'Larnjeray'. Another French word that causes confusion is 'dossier'. Should you anglicise it or not ? Some people are so confused , they end up with something in-between.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: english

There has been a steady decline in pronunciation and "correct" English over recent years, due to, in my humble opinion, the growth of commercial radio and television where the ability to speak correct English is not a criteria any longer. eg.in NZ we often hear news readers on prime time TV referring to "across the ditch" (Australia), "bucks" (dollars).
Also the proliferation of very young reporters who stutter and stammer and start every sentence with "basically" or 'you know"
We were indeed fortunate to attend KBGS. Cheers.
PS just an aside. On my infrequent visits back home, I have observed that the adult children of my contemporaries tend to speak with a broader Yorkshire accent than their parents. Is this anything to do with the Comprensive system compared with our Grammar School education? (Just thinking out loud)

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 47-51

Current location (optional) Auckland NZ

Re: english

Can I join the Grumpy Old Men?
"Next up" "Listen up" and "presently" when they mean "at present". Grrrrrr.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Re: english

The English language is continually evolving and changing and has been doing for hundreds of years.If not we would all still be speaking Anglo-Saxon.I suppose every generation for the last thousand years has bemoaned this fact. The purpose of any language is to pass on a message from one to another and provided it is received without mis-interpretation it has served its purpose. If you want to listen to flowery language go to watch a Shakespeare play.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

whilst we're in Grumpy Old Men mode (again) ...'a criteria' gets me going, Bill - as does ' a phenomena' (there's that Greek ph again....)

Re: english

... "upcoming" instead of "forthcoming" and "I was like ..." instead of "I thought ...."
Allan and I can be grumpy together next time we meet.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Re: english

Any argument that it's fine for the language to evolve fails when strict rules don't apply. Ask (next time you see him) Derek Bentley who in 1952 allegedly said to his accomplice Christopher Craig: "Let him have it, Chris" . Did he mean for Craig to hand over the gun like a good little boy, or did he mean, perhaps using American gangster slang, shoot the bastard?

The jury decided the latter, even though Bentley was little better than a halfwit who couldn't articulate very precisely. Sometimes we muck around with language at our peril.

Bill Clinton tried the old semantics defence when he said "I ... did ... not ... have ... sex ... with... that... woman". So what else would you call it, Bill?

Re: english

Fellatio?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Yes Paul, the Bentley/Craig episode was tragic. Ralph McTell wrote a very good song about it.

Re: english

Thanks, Trevor

I see McTell's lyrics begin:
'In 1952 in Croydon there was bomb sites still around from the war.'

Even well meaning songwriters also stuff up the language. Should we just give in?

Gr8!

Re: english

It's not just the language that gets stuffed - as in Manfred Mann's "I knew we WAS fallin' in love" - but also the Geography - who sang "I want to leave old Durham town" - and yet went on "When I was a boy, I spent my time,Sitting on the banks of the river Tyne."?
Language and knowledge do not seem to count any more. There are two parallel worlds of experience - the "real" world of the pop-culture/celebrity/x-factor/academy awards - and the real world of the "s**t my cards maxed out and I can't spend".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Re: english

And Thin Lizzy sang, most perceptively "Tonight there's gonna (sic) be a jailbreak, somewhere in this town"
I think even the West Yorkshire Constabulary could work that one out.

Re: english

On the Grumpy Old Men theme, How about the overuse of "In terms of",sometimes several times in a sentence ,and then there is the of "impacting " . In Australia it is rampant."Going forward" is another favoured by politicians.What is wrong with "in Future"HUXG

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 43-46

Current location (optional) Sassafras , Tasmania

Re: english

How about these...."An amount of people" - used extensively by media commentators etc. for a "number". Also "Less customers" for "fewer"(?) or were they referring to their size or "spend"? Surely "less" is the comparitive of "little" and "least" the superlative?
I think these are yet more examples of how the "bean counters" have infiltrated our thinking, values and language.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Re: english

Widespread, incorrect use of the double negative is one of my pet irritations. In fact, "I can't get no satisfaction" from reading such drivel.

Also, beginning sentences with conjunctions seems to have become the norm in contemporary literature.

Whilst in GORBY (Grumpy Old Righteous Boys of Yorkshire) mode, I may as well add "this data" to Allan's "a criteria" and "a phenomena".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Re: english

... and "statistics" instead of "data".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Re: english

On thing that really gets my dander up is unnecessary circumloction, such as 'at this moment in time'. What wrong with 'now' ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: english

Oops ! Should have been 'circumlocution' !

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: english

Let's not forget "The devil's in the detail"!!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 50 - 55

Current location (optional) KEIGHLEY

Re: english

One of the big problems is the use of spell checker, it drove me mad when a group of Squaddies I had under me consistently used pneumonic instead of mnemonic in their lesson plans. They had obviously typed in nemonic, the spell checker had rejected it and suggested pneumonic.

I liked the GORBY, but are we in danger of detracting from our language by indulging in the use of acronyms.
Remember TLA is a three letter acronym.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Blue Mountains, Australia via Haworth

Re: english

Oh no! Not acronyms! They infect our language like a virus. My unfavourites are DCSF (how can a body that's responsible for education not have the word "education" in its title?) and the plethora of OF .. this that and the other - OFCOM, OFSTED, OFWAT etc. When I finally retire completely I wish to set up a consultancy to help ex-colleagues combat bureaucracy. I'll call it the OFfice for School Organisation and Development.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Re: english

So DCFS is responsible for education? I thought education must be the remit of some group or other (but perhaps not its main agenda, judging from comments here).

Incidentally, has anyone else come across the current tendency of youth to replace "have" with "of"? Surely someone should of taught (or should that be learnt) them better. Maybe it's specific to the Black Country, but it displays appalling lack of understanding of the structure of language, and it's widespread even amongst the more academically able (ie those with a multiplicity of A*s at GCSE - including English of course).
I blame all this lack of basic knowledge on the fact that kids now spend 5 years in secondary schools doing nothing of any value.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Re: english

The work of Education Secretaries, Sir Keith Joseph (Leeds Nth East) and, more destructively, that of Kenneth Baker (of Mole Valley), has had the greatest effect on the decline of the secondary curriculum, its relevance to our children,their worth in society and the management of our schools. Sadly, subsequent ministers of all parties have not had the courage to chuck out the transatlantic nonsense that Baker imported wholesale after a 48 hour trip to NYC.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Re: english

What a coincidence that this topic has been raised on this site. Only yesterday those in charge of education here in Australia have decided to bring back 'grammar' as a subject.
Wasn't 'grammar' called English Language at KBGS?

Re: english

I believe "could've,would've etc" are acceptable abbreviations these days,but they do sound odd to my ears.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

"Meet with", talk with", etc really give me the *&^%s. Not to mention "cookies" for biscuits

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Haworth now Blue Mountains in Australia

Re: english

The traffic report on the radio - 'the highway is chock-a-block...'.

Re: english

There was a letter in the Sunday Times (Review) yesterday from an English examiner who had had her annual review for the eaxm board. She was told she was being over zealous in correcting spelling and grammar ! She resigned.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: english

She ought to have been sacked! After all, education should not be about pedantic nonsense like being numerate or using correct spelling and grammar. Rather, it's about nurturing self-expression in the young, at the same time fostering the notion that their individual opinions are of equal value to those of Charles Darwin or Isaac Newton for example.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Re: english

Well said,Brian. The rest should look up "pedant" in the dictionary.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Would you take the same approach if it had been a maths teacher ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) IOM

Re: english

I have followed this snaking thread with interest - and not a little amusement at seeing many of my own pet hatreds being lashed with scorn and righteous indignation.

There seem to be two underlying assumptions: firstly, that there is a model of linguistic purity to whose authority we are all more or less consciously appealing, and secondly, that the blame for much, if not all, of the linguistic flapdoodle we seem to loathe must be laid at the door of 'Education' (whose 'model' is not, and has not been for many a year, our model). From one or two postings there is a sense that KBGS circa-1965-70 provided that model and all has been in steep decline ever since.

Hitherto, in the history of all languages, the spoken has provided the laboratory for experiment and selection and the written the repository for what survives the rigorous, though largely unconscious tests jargon, slang, new coinages, new structures etc. undergo in that laboratory of speech. The written has always provided the standard. 'Necessity' has been a prime arbiter, as has 'usefulness', and in 'normal' times one would have expected to see such flabby expressions as 'at this present time', 'the last and final call' and 'the next station stop is... 'etc going to an early grave - as so many of the buzz words and phrases we used in our rebellious youth died the death (and who can remember them now?). But these are not 'normal' times as we have understood the term for most of our lives, anything but! The electronic-communications revolution we are living through has probably put paid to that forever. The advent of the internet and its overwhelming commercial emphasis on trivia to beguile the young, and of the mobile phone and 'text-speak', have introduced crucial factors that were not present when our own linguistic habits and expectations were formed. Now the spoken and the written are indistinguishable for the young and there are no countermanding correctives available. The education systems (and not just in Britain) are failing them linguistically, and in these de-regulated, demotic times radio and television have sold out completely to 'what the people want'.

Education - or the lack of it - comes from many different sources, not just schooling, and the pressures that mould young people's attitudes, behaviour and language are themselves largely arbitrary and certainly predatory. 'Dumbing down', over-prescriptive systems, over-examined systems, hyperbolic claims for everything and a perhaps consequential lack of respect for anything are hallmarks of that broader education 'at this present time'. We may still retain notions of an ideal model to mesure language usage against, but I suspect that no such model has existed for the younger generations for the last quarter of a century, maybe longer. I pity any teacher, now, trying to explain to a class of fifteen-year olds why they should not use clichés, should not write 'fish and chip's', should make distinctions between 'their', 'there' and 'they're', should learn to use punctuation, and so on.

Years ago, in the 'good old days' of the 'Wednesday Play' and 'Play for Today' (here we go again...), I remember watching a play with the almost-prophetic title, 'The Year of the Sex Olympics' (I wonder if anyone else remembers it?), and two things remain vividly in my memory: the Orwellian-Huxleyian herd mentality of the huge audiences who watched the 'games', and the fact that all adjectives had been discarded from the language other than the two catch-alls, 'king-size' to express approval or the positive, and... unfortunately I can't recall the word that expressed its opposite (can anyone supply it?). The point of the play was that a 'dumbed-down' society is inevitably a totalitarianising society, because it mistakes (or consciously misrepresents) 'lowest common denominators' for 'highest common factors'. 'King-size, of course, fell by the wayside, maybe in the 'seventies, but 'great' slipped furtively into its place and persisted and is still with us...

If language is the key to everything - and to nothing, in appropriately manipulated, broader 'political' circumstances - then, at the end of the day, when the chips are down, and not forgetting the last analysis, can we still have faith in the old common-sensical linguistic sifters and hope for a seachange or must we resign ourselves to ever more linguistic (and other) inanities gusting in from the Atlantic? (Maybe that is a rhetorical question, alas!). So... how are you today?... Have a nice day!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 51-58

Current location (optional) Cottingham

Re: english

Are we now introducing a new slant which is confusing education with schooling? Education is a life-long experience for us all. Schooling provides a grounding for the development of fulfilling skills. Using these skills, we earn our livings and, as we mature, seek the enlargement of our being - "skills for life". The process of schooling involves experiencing a measure of humility, grasping the basics and getting them right in practice. As employees (or in continuing education) we can then communicate effectively, compute accurately, manage with fewer cock-ups.With those capabilities self-confidence follows and engenders self-expression and personal development. We already have a stockpile of youths (and older) whose excessive self-confidence is not matched by their abilities or their competence in developing scientific theories. I can't imagine where they got their misconceptions.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Re: english

Ah,mathematics,Peter.Pure and unadulterated.Unaffected by opinion.Not subject to the mores and whimseys of the author.Three plus three is six and you cannot make it other not even if you give it a great big kiss.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

My edition of The Concise Oxford Dictionary for

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Re: english

Doug, you've not written anything under the name of Alan Sokal,by any chance?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Not recently Alec, not since 1999, in fact - don't go in for all that fashionable nonsense meself (or was that a rhetorical question?).

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

Re: english

try "phacetious"!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

What ephrontery! I'm phlabbergasted! Words phail me at this time!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1951-58

Re: english

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the primary school in Whitminster near Stroud, where the headteacher has decided to scrap spelling tests for children aged 4-11 because children found them "unnecessarily distressing" and could leave the children with a "sense of failure". Maybe some of you who went on to teach has an opinion on that strange decision.(To me anyway) Cheers.
I read it in the International Express 14 October 2008.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 47-51

Current location (optional) Auckland NZ

Re: english

For the sake of your sanity,Bill, do not believe anything you read in any paper of the Express Group;with the possible exception of the date at the top. The paper has columnists such as Frederick Forsyth and Widdecombe,whose outlook on life seems to be "I'm in the boat Jack,pull the bloody ladder up". It is a dreadfull right wing newspaper pandering to the outdated tastes of Little Englanders. Try reading The Independent,it is available over the internet.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

Re: english

Thanks for that Alec. I have had a look at the Independent and will again. Actually it is my son, a Kiwi, who buys the Int. Express occasionally for his "pommy" dad, knowing that even after being downunder for over 54 years, he still enjoys keeping up to date with things happening at home. We can do that so much easier than the old days.Cheers.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 47-51

Current location (optional) Auckland NZ