KBGS Old Boys' Forum

A place to discuss Keighley Boys' Grammar School. 


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Grammar Schools

Today, the Conservative Party announced that it was dropping its policy of reintroducing grammar schools in favour of a policy of supporting the development of the academy school programme initiated by Tony Blair. Conceding that city academies seem to be more successful in promoting social mobility, David Willetts said, "It is clear that the way forward is technology colleges and city academies." Does this mean that grammar schools will wither and fade away?

This website, initiated by the son of one of our old boys, affords an excellent opportunity for us all to make serious (and other) contributions to recording our personal experiences of one grammar school - our school - before there is no-one left who remembers what grammar schools are/were.

Some 190 old boys have signed the "Guestbook". How good it would be if half of that number contributed to this site by listing the benefits of their education there; what opportunities unfolded for them - at school and later; what the school meant to them then - and now. There are many more who visit the site than "post" recollections. They should "out" themselves and add their testimony. Many visitors know other old boys not "on the net" and could elicit their contributions and post them. This is a great (and possibly last) opportunity or us all to add to the history of grammar schools by sharing our thoughts and recollections of KBGS.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

Terry's posting raises some interesting questions.
Will grammar schools whither and fade away? Not because of the Conservative Party's statement they won't. There is a significant minority of Local Authorities that still retain grammar schools and those schools will stay as long as local political opinion supports them. Many areas abandoned grammar schools with the drive for a comprehensive system 30 years ago but since then there has been little change in there numbers and that is likely to continue to be the situation, even though areas with a selective system generally produce slightly poorer results across the board than comprehensive areas.
There are a variety of types of "grammar schools" too.
Prince Henry's GS in Otley is actually a comprehensive by another name and there are many similar schools across the country. Large numbers of Local Authority grammar schools of the KBGS type still exist (in Kent for example), and of course there are the "grammar schools", like Leeds Boys' Grammar, which are in reality private schools.
We were fortunate in going to a grammar school that hoped to admit pupils solely on ability. In many parts of the country our contemporaries attended grammar schools where, if you failed the 11+ and your parents had money, you could buy your way in. But times have changed and, though they served us well (more or less), grammar schools would not meet today's needs.
Just as well. It's the fact that KBGS is long gone that makes this site so alive.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Oh my God!!!
I put in a "there" instead of a "their".
....and I attended a grammar school too. The shame, the shame....

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Shaun, more shame! Shouldn't 'whither' be 'wither' ??
Write it out 100 times !

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: Grammar Schools

I have to admit that I value my time at the KBGS very highly. I was a little bit innocent and at the time unaware of the process I was undergoing. There was a tension in my early years when I was a snob in my home street and a lout in my school. It was only later when I ventured into the wider world that I realised the difference in my education and that of others of my contemporaries. Especially when I went into the RAF,( it was the time of conscription ). It was not a question of how much more I knew and could do but my innocent amazement at how little other people knew or could do. This in no way speaks of a superiority for I would that all might have shared what I now value.
I have argued with people who believed that ice was chemically different to water and so too was steam. I can remember being sneered at because I was a grammar school snob, who had probably forgotten everything I had been taught and when challenged to prove Pythagoras I could and did in the sand of a shooting butt one sunny afternoon. The rotten challenger refused to accept my proof and walked all over my diagram and scuffed it into oblivion with his boots.
It was on reflection not so much the knowledge acquired nor even perhaps the skills( although I can still do simultaneous equations although I have never had cause to use them nor can I remember doing long division ever!) so much as it was a way of thinking about things and working to a standard.
I think that there has been much lost in our schools and much of it is down to thew loss of grammar Schools. Like everything else it seems that we have levelled down rather than up.

Re: Grammar Schools

Indeed!
Prehaps grammer schools wernt all thay wer crackd up to bee.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Arthur's recollections raise more questions in my mind. His questioning of whether knowledge, skills or ways of thought were what he mainly gained from kbgs strike a chord with me.
We can say what strikes us now as being significant, but perhaps that stops us from recognising other things we learned from our time at kbgs.
Like Arthur my chief impression of kbgs was of an attempt to inculcate ways of thought, the drive to make us conform to the social structure of the day, of which kbgs was a part. I rejected these values and, to an extent, felt something of an outsider for doing so. Consequently I felt a great sense of relief at leaving kbgs and going to university, where we were encouraged to argue with rigour and where not conforming to the accepted view was seen as an aid to learning. But I also took many positives from kbgs, they are simply not what is uppermost in my memories.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Did a quota system operate as regards entry to KBGS? There seemed to be a lot of lads from schools such as Park Wood and Ingrow, and some of them were pretty thick compared to the bright lads we left behind to go to Silsden Secondary Modern to become mill fodder. The powers that be obviously regarded 5 Cobbydalers as quite sufficient. We, by the way, took the proper 11 plus, and the Keefly lads didn't. Level playing fields didn't exist till we went to Oakbank, and then they were flooded.

Re: Grammar Schools

Serious accusations here!! As a Parkwooder (lately transferred from Eastwood grace a the 1944 Butler Act) we had 15 scholarships - 7 places for boys. KBGS had a 4 form intake then (1952) - probably about 120 lads. How did our 11 plus differ from the Cobbey version? An intriguing statement. Chapter and verse would be illuminatingly interesting. I believe there was a de facto regional "quota system" nationally for 11+ selection - and that depended on how many places the local elected dignitaries were prepared to fund in the grammars. In the '60s South Wales boroughs offered 25% plus places compared with 18% in North Yorks. I don't know the Keighley percentage. I know Welsh rugby teams have "Brains" inscribed on their shirts but that is more in hope than expectation. I was never aware at the time (1952-60) of a sentiment that some districts or schools were more favoured than others over selection to kbgs. We all know of some good kids from our primary schools who didn't make it to North Street or Greenhead Lane but more disappointing were the numbers of kids who didn't make it at kbgs and kggs.To those Keighley kids who didn't make it to the grammar in the '60s , there was soon to be offered the "Keighley Certificate", a leavers' certificate, which along with other similar regional recognitions led to the Beloe Report and the CSE which introduced more searching and successful methods of measurement of a teenager's ability and potential.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

Fair enough Terry, but we are talking about different eras - I was one of the 1963 intake - the last to enter the "old building", and then for a mere 2 terms. At that time, in some schools, the 11 plus had been replaced by some sort of continual assessment - the "Thorne Scheme", I think. Any educationalists in?

I was not inferring, by the way, that all Ingrowers and Parkwooders were thick. Far from it. However, one lad named Sharpe, when asked on the first day, whether his name was spelled with an 'e', replied, in all seriousness, "some people spell it with, and some without".

Re: Grammar Schools

There was a lad from Farnhill in our form who proudly gave his name as "Sharpe - with an "e" ". Further, the first time we got back homework from Ben Tren in 1a, Ben berated us for the poor standard of our first page of copied up notes. "And", he added, "there is one boy in this form who cannot spell his name. Stand up, Brown". After a lapse while Ben checked to see if "Brown" was absent, Derrick Bown (sic) meekly announced, "Do you mean me, sir?" But he was an Ingrower!!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

As a child I was told that 20% of children "passed" the 11+ each year. When I started at kbgs in 1958, having attended the maligned Ingrow PS, 25% of Ingrow pupils passed - slightly above the Keighley average but, given the way we were crammed for it, perhaps not surprising. With hindsight, 20% was probably right since, in our baby-boom year of 1946-7, 180 boys started at kbgs rather that the usual 120.
At that time Keighley was an excepted district of the West Riding and, largely, administered its own educational provision. My understanding is that, after the 20% quota had been applied to children from within the excepted district, there were further places allocated to children from further afield. The quota for these children must have been quite small. I guess that Farnhill, Cullingworth, Cowling etc. came into this category - maybe Silsden did too.
I'm not sure whether you could say that this constituted discrimination, though discrimination certainly did exist - against girls. Girls regularly performed better that boys in the 11+ and so the quota system meant that girls had to achieve higher marks to pass than did boys. How many able girls never went on to higher education because of this is anyone's guess. A crazy system, and it's still affecting girls in about 20% of the country.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Further to Shauns post, the year we took 11+ (1958) I recall that 63 of us (boys and girls) passed for KBGS/KGGS. This comprosed all 38 in the 'A' stream (Miss Whitakers), 20 in the 'B' stream (Mr Silverwood) and 5 in the 'C' stream (Miss Riley).
This was out of 5 streams , ie approx 185 children, so Ingrow pass rate was 34%.
The school that always ran Ingrow close was Riddlesden.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Re: Grammar Schools

My recollection is similar to that of Brian's in that a similar number from the three top forms passed the 11+ in 1959 from Ingrow.

The other 'local' grammar schools that still remind me of KBGS (and KGGS)in many ways is Ermysted's - which my son atteded (and Skipton Girls High School - which my daughter attended). Competition to become pupils from the surrounding areas is extremely strong (including Keighley - where just a couple of weeks ago I was amazed to see a young Pakistani walking down Victoria Road at 5pm with a rucksack almost as big as himself, wearing the full Ermysted's uniform.

It just goes to show that if you're good enough, you do get through the external examinations. There are three of them and literally hundreds of 'outsiders' take them every year in order to get the traditional grammar school education.

There are too many 'wishy-washy' commentators today. Bring back the old times when examinations actually did what they were intended to do. Nowadays, the vast majority of schools are producing, what can only be described as 'failures'.

BIG mistake Cameron!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59 - 66

Current location (optional) Embsay

Re: Grammar Schools

Terry asks for the benefits and opportunities that accrued to us from attending Grammar School. Like Arthur Seeley I valued my time at KBGS very highly and was aware at the time [1943] how fortunate iwas to be able to attend such a school. In our year at Highfield School I was the only one to pass the 11+ , as was my brother in 1941. In comparison to the figures quoted in the intakes of the 1956-58-63 etc where the numbers were very high from various schools. Shaun says that in other parts of the country ain his time parents could pay for their children to go to Grammar if they failed the 11+, well at KBGS in the forties this was the norm and i am sad to say that their was an element of snobbery at the school about those who , like myself and brother, got a "County Minor Scholarship " which paid the school fees in full.We just had to ignore the snide comments and get on and prove ourselves.
I had the to move away to another Grammar School at the start of the fourth form, Normanton in the colliery distict of South Yorks, so had futher experience of life in a totally different society ,with a new language to learn too! However the School was much the same in structure as Keighley and the effect on me was similar. I think the values that the teachers laid down at Keighley Grammar have lasted all my life,mainly in the pursuit of knowledge and to be honourable and fair in dealing with others and to play sports as they were meant to be played which is seriously lacking in a lot of todays youth. I speak from experience on this having played football till 71 yrs old with all ages.
All in all the memories of the place have stuck with me and this dite has been and still is terrific for bringing back the past ,long may it continue.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1943-46

Current location (optional) Sassafras, Tasmania

Re: Grammar Schools

I owe everything to winning a scholarship to KBGS in 1940, as a kid from a poor home (not the poorest but pretty damn poor). The education was first class academically speaking and it was only later that I realised how dedicated some of the teaching staff were and how their lives were totally committed to teaching.Thanks to them I got an Open Scholarship to Cambridge and ended up with a 1st class degree.

My one regret was that what we now call pastoral care could have been better and could have led me to take advantage of more of what KBGS had to offer. Still that was the norm in those days and I suppose teachers had plenty to do without bothering about the private life of pupils. There were some exceptions - I've already mentioned Miss Berrington and Ma Whitehead on this site before. Not a co-incidence though that in those days the women were left, whether by accident or policy, to deal with the emotional traumas of pupils.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 40-48

Current location (optional) Epsom

Re: Grammar Schools

Just re-read Shaun's post:

'My understanding is that, after the 20% quota had been applied to children from within the excepted district, there were further places allocated to children from further afield. The quota for these children must have been quite small. I guess that Farnhill, Cullingworth, Cowling etc.'

Just 1 year after Shaun, the 1959 intake incuded several pupils from as far afield as Queensbury, Bingley and Shipley.

Shows how little Shaun remembers and how parochial he can be in his memories.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59 - 66

Current location (optional) Embsay

Re: Grammar Schools

Th'art reight lad. Ah've nivver bin futher na' 'owath an' Ah've fergetten most o't stuff fri' then. Ah've fergetten thee an' all.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

Lads fra Queensbury war attending KGS afore 1959 tha naws. (Ah naw cos Ah were wun on em!)
Back in '58 there war owder lads, even prefects, on t'bus wi' us.
Ah new (and still naw) sod all abaht quotas though.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58 -65

Re: Grammar Schools

Whilst at KBGS several "inmates" were from Queensbury - David and Barrie C Smith, Alan Marshall, Brendan Reilly, Denis Avery. 1950-55
********************************************************************************
Before memories are totally eroded, has any thought been given to adding names ( comment) to the School photographs ??

Just a thought !!
Would be a challenge, n'est-ce pas ??



Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1950-55

Current location (optional) Keighley

Re: Grammar Schools

There were two scholarships available for entry to KBGS. The County Minor and the Drake and Tonson. Both would have been norm-referenced exams which means the school would advise the examining board that it had X places available and the bell curve of results would have the pass line adjusted left or right to admit just that number of pupils. This was not as fair as the criterion-referenced examination where you passed if you showed you had a range of relevant abilities and the number of places available was not a consideration. The norm-referenced examinations were a bit unfair in that in one year the line would be moved well to the left because the results were so poor and the pass mark would be far lower than that achieved by boys rejected the year before.
There were two boys in my form that were paying pupils that I knew of. I sat by one for three years and he cribbed my maths without stint or shame. Later working in the office of the factory owned by his father I saw him sat outside in a powder blue Jaguar. I spoke to him and he ignored me. I thank him from the bottom of my worthless soul for convincing me to become an inveterate, dyed-in-the-wool, barricade-manning, banner-wielding Socialist. The other lad was the son of the local Liberal parliamentary candidate-poor sod.
There was a great deal of social engineering going on in those days ( the 40's)and most of the grammar school lads were to be clerks of one kind or another, while those we left behind in Elementary school were to be the greasy handed blue collar lot. Bloody stupid idea really.
I am still of the mind that my education at KBGS was to be valued, indeed cherished but that I would wish the same for all young people.
To hell with privilege.
Richard Hoggart's ' The Uses of Literacy' is well worth reading for the way he has detailed and discussed all these issues from the point of view of a young lad from the streets of Hunslet.
Arthur

Re: Grammar Schools

Well said Arthur.
The fact that I gained substantial benefit from going to kbgs doesn't mean that I regard that system as having been fair. As with the scholarships you refer to, the 11+ was a norm referenced test and had the same effect (of excluding/including someone one year who would have been included/excluded the following year).
No doubt you have been accused, as I have, of wanting to "pull up the drawbridge". Not so. I wanted to get rid of the drawbridge, fill in the moat and let everyone have the opportunity to extend their education.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

The stuff we had initially (1st year onwards) to learn and then later study (possibly post "O" Level) I accepted without question as being what I should know to get a good position. I didn't know that there was any other alternative "knowledge". Later as a teacher in secondary comprehensive education (which I enjoyed) I was aggravated by the kids who challenged every set task with the truncated question,"Jaffta?".I inwardly asked them, "Don't you bloody well want to know/do anything?".A significant number would dismiss any subject, project or activity as "boring" - without sampling.It struck me that the need to achieve and excel had been dulled; not, I would submit, the fault of the all-in comprehensive system and national examination goals but the impact on our kids of the alternative "education" that was offered by the media of all types.Next weeks BBC4 theme on childrens' tv will posit some interesting areas for controversy.
Syllabus content apart, perhaps the most impacting (ahem!) factor in my time at kbgs was the personalities and programmes of my masters. The more positive elements were: Bloomfield; Catley; Rannard; Stockdale;Swift. They not only encouraged but offered valued advice that made progress possible and showed personality qualities that one could borrow. Some others, whom I prefer not to name, worked just has hard but appeared to have no grasp of the truism that all stick and no carrot makes for dead donkeys. Happily, because I was a stubborn, awkward sod I achieved in their areas - eventually - despite their predictions.Tom makes reference to the lack of pastoral care - and that was a sorry omission in the post-war provision - especially as many of the kids had family experiences that had been shaped by the war against fascism. Another gap in provision, in my submission, was the lack of any relevant career guidance. There was one careers convention - but no one to look into your skills, abilities and potential and offer career-specific advice. It was either leave with "O" Levels and find a job (with prospects) - or take "A" levels and plump for the universities. One aspect that I appreciated was the civilised way in which differences of information and opinion were addressed (in class and societies - not in the yard). I left kbgs with the view that it was ok in a liberal democracy a) to express one's opinions b) with no fear of recrimination.I got on ok with a) but I'm afraid that the kbgs debating alliances did not predict that holding views could be an obstacle to acceptance on merit in many fields even in such non-contentious areas as club membership and team selection.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

Thanks 'Shawn Pie'

I didn't want to get personal but it looks as though you have...........

'Those who can do .... those who can't teach.'

Th'art reight lad. Ah've nivver bin futher na' 'owath an' Ah've fergetten most o't stuff fri' then. Ah've fergetten thee an' all.

'Nuff said in your language'.

I prefer 'cultured Yorkshire'. I know how far you've been but you don't know how far I have. Leeds IS NOT the centre of the universe - though you might think it is.


Years at KBGS e.g. 58-63 58-65

Country/Town Leeds

Looks as though you have forgotten your roots.

Need I say more?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 59 - 66

Current location (optional) Embsay

Re: Grammar Schools

Much of what Terry says rings so true, particularly regarding the positive and negative element in the teaching. I concur with his assessment of F. Catley etc. and would add to that s string of Maths teachers, Hemingway and 'Joe' for his imagination in using direct method teaching in French.
I'm sure all these able teachers could "do" as well as teach. When I worked in a steelworks in the 1970s it was clear to me that the best doers often made the best teachers. I'm sure that quite a number of our former teachers at kbgs were teaching because they felt a commitment, not beacuse they couldn't 'do'.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

I find much with which to empathize in recent postings on this thread, despite clear evidence of confrontation(albeit polite)therein.
In particular, Dave's use of the cliche, "Those who can do - those who can't teach", has always rung true for me personally. I freely admit that my formal education raised my aspirations of a career in which the competition was always going to prove too strong for my own abilities. Consequently I drifted into teaching, but I mean this as no slur on those who have a genuine vocation in the area.
On the other hand, Shaun's assertion that the best doers make the best teachers is also a view to which I adhere strongly in the light of experience. (Perhaps that's why our education system has supplied more academics than our "Ivory Towers" can accommodate - or is it simply our belief in Darwin?)

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58 -65

Re: Grammar Schools

Accepted Brian .... and the fact that you came in to "pour oil on troubled waters" leads me to beleive that, contrary to your protestations, you were probably a pretty good, sensitive teacher.
Regarding "confrontation": Brian's posting has led me to re-read again and again my posting of 20th March to find what I said that could have given offence, with the intention of offering a fulsome apology when I did so. But all I can find is the fact that I omitted to mention Shipley, Bingley etc. I apologise if that was the problem.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

To add to the debate, here's the first bit of a recent article by Mike Baker, BBC Education Correspondent - "For the past week or so, the headlines have been all about the row over the Conservative Party leadership's abandonment of support for grammar schools. The latest twist has been over whether this would mean a Conservative government could still allow the building of new grammar schools in areas where academic selection already exists, such as Buckinghamshire. The debate has plunged the Conservatives into a full-blown split over grammar schools, something that until now had appeared to be the preserve of the Labour Party. But hang on a minute: why are some Tories getting so hot under the collar about a policy change which, on the face of it, seems to change nothing at all?
Look at the facts. How many grammar schools did the Conservative governments of Margaret Thatcher and John Major create? Answer: none.
Going further back, how many grammar schools were turned into comprehensives under Edward Heath's government, when a certain Margaret Thatcher was education secretary? Answer: lots.
Indeed, Mrs Thatcher (as she then was) is understood to have signed away more grammar schools between 1970 and 1974 than any other education secretary before or since. And let's go further back still. Who brought in comprehensive schools in the first place? It is often - but mistakenly - believed that comprehensive schools were introduced by Harold Wilson's Labour government in the mid-1960s. In fact, the first comprehensive schools were opened during the 1950s and early 1960s, under Conservative governments."

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Re: Grammar Schools

That must be correct Shaun. As a youngster I recall reference to Buttershaw Comprehensive School (Bradford) around the time you mention. It seemed strange terminology then (as in "What's compri'ensiv Mam?")

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58 -65

Re: Grammar Schools

I'm sorry Terry but I can't support you on this. I think there was a strong element of snobbery and class distinction present in the grammar school system, thinly veiled as a special opportunity for bright kids. I was an extemely bright kid but it didn't do me any favours. I spent the rest of my life mending the damage done to my spirit at that school.
What an anachronism! "Houses" for god's sake, "Forms",
"Prefects" (Uriah Heeps)...Jesus Joseph and Mary, "Masters" flapping around in mediaeval pomp, and the farce of them all "Founder's Day".
Oh, and we couldn't play the games that the commoners played........soccer. It had to be rugby, the sport of the upper class. The whole damn thing was a mutual admiration society geared toward conformance. Sadly, most of the poor kids fed into that meatgrinder had whatever originality and character kicked out of them, leaving as dutiful, subservient sycophants. I had very valuable lessons in unfairness, small mindedness, large egos, and aquired a healthy disgust for social climbing.
The best thing that happened to me there was being expelled. It allowed me to really start my life. I started an apprenticeship at Prinnies where I was treated as an adult and with respect, and where I learned things of practical value (see my post today on "Another of our year turns up!").
I think it would be very good for the UK to get rid of grammar schools altogether and concentrate on things other than "Pomp and circumstance".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-57

Current location (optional) USA

Re: Grammar Schools

"Cobblers".
Oh, sorry, Bernard...wrong posting!!
- but it still fits and describes your re-writing of the past in this posting.
It is said that history reveals more of the historian than it does of the past.
Remember, I was a close fellow-sufferer with you. We shared a lot in common - same form, same friends,same smokers' corner, same courses, same House (Longsdon - Surge et Fulge)- which you represented with distinction at rugby (as you did the school)and at athletics. (Pity you were crap at cricket.)I didn't see any evidence of damage to your spirit. You and others in our A form of 24 kids had spirit enough for the whole year - and we were supposed to be the good'uns. We had a reputation with the staff for being the awkward squad - I don't remember much bending of the knee.We had our own agenda - but were sufficiently savvy not to kick too hard against the "pricks" (however you identify them) when the time came to make the grade that was on offer - i.e. 'O' Level (and whatever followed) - because at that (st)age in our development we were looking for what advantages might come next. That probably equates to your days of enlightenment at Prinnies where my dad started his working life. His view differed from yours in that he rued the lost chances of his kbgs days - and he wasn't a conformist either! Rugby - "the sport of the upper classes"? - you should have tried telling them that down Lawkholme AND Showfield. Urdy, Maudy, Codge and the rest would have howled you out of court. Yes, Bernard, (I nearly used your 1950s soubriquet then) you are right. Kbgs was not a kindergarten. It didn't look into individual needs. It offered a pattern to be measured against. It was a school of hard knocks - and you took them and survived like most of the rest of us- I witnessed that. I don't remember a beaten, cowering Bernard Johnson - just the opposite - a spunky, "in-yer-face" sprog. I fear you have rewritten your schooldays in the light and context of a more satisfying employment career. To some extent, we all do that.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

Terry,
As always you write a thoughtful and well reasoned response.
It seems that I have a lot of residual anger. It will be 50 yrs. this autumn since I put that Dickensian institution behind me. One would think that I should have got over by now!
They did their best to break my spirit, as they did everyone else's. They failed, I emerged stronger and well prepared to take on all the would-be Hitlers that were to come.
I just think it is a shame that grown men, who presumably were reasonably well educated, acted like children themselves. At 12 yrs. old I was naive and had been taught to respect my elders, and, generally to that point I had done so, finding that my elders deserved respect. Now here were these beings, not only elders but "masters", in charge of my destiny! It did not take me long to discover that most (not all) of them had feet of clay. By the second year I was a hardened cynic, and had nothing but contempt for those who, by this time, I considered beneath me.
My problem was, that at that age I still had idealism, and was convinced that truth and justice would prevail. I didn't have the sense to stop "kicking against the pricks", and kept coming back for more. You were much smarter than me in that respect.
In retrospect I did benefit from KBGS. I learned that people in power can be small minded and vicious. I learned never to take people at face value. I learned to not show my cards. I learned that people are frail and lots of times cannot be trusted. I learned to carefully analyze any potential friend. All these things have served me well.
As you say it was a school of hard knocks.
Regarding your comment about my cricket abilities I can't see how you arrived at your conclusion, since I never played. I detested the game and made it my business to not play. I realized that half the kids spent their time sitting on the benches waiting to bat. The kids who were worst were the last to go in. My strategy was as follows: I went out of my way to demonstrate that I was no good at batting. This would ensure that the gung ho team leaders (such as yourself) would immediately make a mental note that "Johnson goes in last!". For some reason I can't fathom, the games always ended before the last kid got in to bat and a new game would start. At the point I switched sides and was on the batting side again (slated for last). Nobody ever noticed, which was a source of amazement to me, but I figured "anybody dumb enough to play cricket.........".
I went through every season using this ploy, and every season Gilbert Swift wrote comments on my non-existent perfomance. I thought it was hilarious and still do.
Please don't take offense Terry.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-57

Current location (optional) USA

Re: Grammar Schools

Bernard,
I thought I picked out a number of positive qualities that you displayed when we were boys together. You appear to have centred on my one comment about your cricket (which was crap! but not an essential property!). I could have listed more of your positive qualities- but others read this and I would not wish to be too personal/confidential. (I can remember a number of instances over all of our five years in the A form when you showed your best colours.) I think you have forgotten those occasions and periods. Sorry, chum, we have different perspectives on you!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Re: Grammar Schools

I hesitate to reply further Terry because this web site is not about me, but let me stress....I thought it was funny that you thought my cricket was crap, whenever I did play it was! "You appear to have centred on my one comment" I only seized upon this as an excuse to relate what I fondly believed was a mildly amusing anecdote.
You have been kind and generous in your comments and you have my respect.
This is my e-mail address for you and anyone else who might care to give me an earful:
bflat12bar@yahoo.com
Cheers.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-57

Current location (optional) USA

Re: Grammar Schools

I have been reading this post with some interest, I experienced both kgbs and an Australian equivalent of a comprehensive school, the high school.

My time at kbgs, whilst not an academic success, nevertheless, was far superior to that at high school. I was 14 when I arrived in Australlia, the Principal at my high school read my school report (far from impressive) and based upon his knowledge of UK education placed me in a class 1 year ahead of my age cohort. After 3 months I had passed the NSW Intermediate Certificate without any effort on my part.

KBGS taught me how to think even though I didn't know it at the time.

I developed a rich and rewarding career in the Australian Army, oddly enough kbgs made this easier for me than for many others, eventually went on to get a reasonable degree. The army is about teaching, most soldiers above the rank of private are teachers, believe me, the best of them are the one's who really know their stuff. After retiring from the army, I began working for the NSW Department of Technical and Further Education. Again, the teachers within the system are the best at their craft and trade, and have enviable records of their teaching and training successes.

I believe that the grammar school system did provide opportunities for those "gifted" children to realise their potentials, I know it did for me. I grew up with a healthy respect for authority and a keen inquiring mind. Without it I would probably have moved into the coal humping business with my father and would now be walking with a stoop.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

Current location (optional) Originally Haworth, now Blue Mountains Australia