'Youve been a naughty boy, so now I am going to give you the cane. Bend over with your arms on those of that chair' . Hit me twice, hardly felt a thing. I suspect he had two techniques, those he really wanted to hurt, and those he just wanted to humiliate.
Stoker, who took me to him, had a habit if someone was fiddling with his pencil, of breaking it in two and saying 'you have two to play with now' . I had an almost uncontrollable urge to snatch the cane from Joe and do the same thing. Fortunately suppressed!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) brianmoate@hotmail.com

Brian's last posting is interesting in that it may give some insight into the "new" disciplinary "system" under Watthey and may tell us more about the man. Watthey was head for my last 2 years at KBGS. Before I left, there were percolating through accounts of occasional beatings. These must have been so rare under Old Nick because I for one don't recall hearing of one such. Old Nick's regime was more humane and systematised through "stopping in" run by the discipliner (eg Prut the Impounder), official friday pm detentions and "saturday mornings" -supervised by Old Nick and the most severe punishment prior to expulsion. Any physical punishments were administered by individual teachers on the spot.Each had their own approaches (or not as the case may be). Stoker,for example, was such a feared individual with his own pschycological tricks that he did not need back-up from the head. Could it be that Saint Arthur obliged staff to bring recalcitrants such as you, Brian, to be offered upto him to be beaten for the good of their souls - if not their "r" souls. Or that he was a centralising,totalitarian serial beater. What a paradox - Old Nick (the humane) and the Revd Arthur (the chastener).

Believe it or not I actually received a caning from good old Neville Hind! I have no recollection what it was for and in fact I'm amazed that I remember it at all as it was so 'uneventful' - I hardly felt the cane on my backside. I just don't believe he had it in him to really hurt anybody.

tp

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) tpdesign@primus.com.au

Current location (optional) www.studiofour.com.au

Was only sent to Joe once for the cane. Cruddy, who was taking us for Art in Cliffe Castle (would you beleive it) sent Tony Pickles and I back for fighting with a knife - he got many things wrong.
We decided not to go and went to the Art room to 'help' PA Preston.
Next morning Crud stormed into Biology and marched Tony and I to Joe. I explained that we had made a genuine mistake in returning to the Art room, that Crud had made a similar mistake in misinterpreting pencil sharpening as a knife fight and that the whole series of misunderstandings was regretable,
To my astonishment Joe accepted the whole load of cobblers and sent us away without even the slightest reprimand.
..... so he can't have been a complete caning fanatic.

He just knew (like all of us) what an r'sole Crud was!

I can also report on Wathey's clemency.Having nearly been caught smoking somewhere in the yard at lunchtime I had quickly "docked" the tab end and put it in the top pocket of my blazer.Unfortunately when the next class started I experienced what I thought at first was heartburn.However a small blaze in the blazer was spotted by the master.I was despatched to Watheys office and expected the worst.However instead I got a lecture on the hazards of cigarette smoking and he recomended switching to a pipe!

Actually the the long red marks from Joe's cane could last for a couple of weeks on the upper thighs and backside. A source of much amusement in the showers after rugger and PE.

As as been noted before, most boys were surprised by the first two lashes but usually let out some expression of discomfort and pain on the third. I did laughed when I went outside on one occasion to see another boy, David Leach, already in tears and distress at the sound of the lashes and various utterances.

I suppose perceived stoicism in face of extreme pain separated the 'men' from the 'boys'.

I got the cane on two occasions from "Joe",and it did hurt. The only consolation however was that on the second occasion, and knowing what was to come, there was a certain amount of nervous expectation on my part. This eventually manifested itself in me letting out one almighty "fart" in mid-stroke, resulting in a near miss on his part! At that stage I don't know who was most upset, him or me, but at least I did manage to cause a bit of a stink. HAPPY DAYS!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) fonth@btinternet.com

Current location (optional) Under the cellar stairs

The subject of the one and only the late Professor Jimmy Edwards came up in a discussion only the other day. 'Wacko' was a great teatime BBC show in the sixties and caning was considered perfectly fine for family viewing. The pleasure Jimmy Edwards displayed before caning one of his miscreants was matched by the Rev. Arthur Edward Watthey. Happy days.

What a series of lurid descriptions. I only join the discussion to say that I believe that 'Old Nick' very rarely caned anyone and the only times I ever heard of it he used to hit people on the hand,never, so far as I knew, on any other part of the anatomy. He didn't need to--his verbal beatings could be quite memorable.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) '40-'48

Current location (optional) Epsom

Lurid, indeed Tom. The interesting Joe Watthey despite his cloak of religion, social work and social club memberships was an indulgent fellow. And caning would be as easy to him as knocking back a pint of brown ale. Guardian readers today would regard him as been an evil chap. Not so myself.

Not wanting to in any way reduce my late father's reputation by injecting a modicum of reality here, but it is probably worth saying that, although the "technique" was effective (i.e. painful, which was the requirement of corporal punishment in those days), the punishments were all recorded, witnessed and controlled, and normally required parental consent. On one memorable occasion the parent insisted on wielding the cane himself, and the boy received a much harsher beating than he otherwise would. The reality is that "Joe" was under strict instruction from the Board of Governors to apply corporal punishment for certain levels of poor behaviour, despite his frequent requests to have the policy overturned. Among his proudest achievements was not only to have the policy eventually revoked by the Governors before he left Oakbank GS, but also his work in the Headmasters Association legal committee to have corporal punishment stopped in all state schools, as a lead up to the ban by Parliament.
Good at it yes, enjoyed it NO.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 62-69

An excellent rebuttal Peter and well written. It seems to me that many schools today are virtually ungovernable as they do not have the final sanction of the cane. One small point did 'Joe' have to purchase the cane himself from an arcane source or did the West Yorkshire County Council supply them from a central store.

I can't remember whether my canings were witnessed or not, and they were certainly not sanctioned by my parents! But I can testify that they were extremely painful and left black welts across my buttocks for quite a while. This does seem to lend a lie to the fact that Joe was unhappy delivering the punishment. If the Board of Governors were not witness to the events then how would they know whether he caned heavily or lightly. If Joe didn't believe that the pain/suffering was the answer then why did he knowingly and willingly cause it? There's some logic going astray here. 'Methinks he doth protest too much' - mmmm??

tp

One suspects Peter Watthey is re-writing history. The all-powerful Rev. Arthur Edward Watthey visibly winked at his faithful retainer and ride home companion Miss Riley before caning me once. Ah,'what a wicked web we weave when first we practise to deceive'. Shakespeare of course.

Peter you know nothing!
After all you were in a 'privileged' position.
Are all the other stories about our 'masters' untrue as well?
Memories may fade as we get older, but not this much !

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 60-65

Current location (optional) Keighley

Privileged? Well I don't think that getting the backlash of every boy and/or staff member that had a grudge was privileged. Admittedly times were different then, but I do remember that I was walloped on the behind three times with a gym-slipper by Gilbert Swift at the age of 17 for whispering to a friend in private study. Casual corporal punishment by staff was already forbidden by AEW (this was 1968), but it didn't make any difference, and perhaps precipitated the action against me.
I did have the privilege of knowing the man as well as the headmaster. His power over the school was in no doubt. Around that time there was a pupil "strike", organised for a reason which now escapes me, but the whole school refused to go back after break and there was a lot of chanting and banners held high (student demos were in vogue). AEW came up the path to the Dutch Barn where the protest was centred in his full black gown. The crowd fell silent after a few seconds, AEW said quietly (it was now deadly silent) "get back to work", And 700 boys (plus a few girls by then) quietly walked back to class. It was a sight which I shall never forget, and would never be repeated in this day and age. If it took a little physical pain to instill discipline into those few recalcitrant boys whom the staff could not handle, (and I still maintain it was just a few during my years at least) then it was a good thing. However I know that he was much more proud of introducing things like the school council where senior pupils reviewed minor offences brought to them by prefects, and where pupils could appeal against "sentence". Also the revamped prefect system where all sixth formers took turns to be prefect, instead of it always being the bruisers in the "first fifteen". Or the reintroduction of wood and metal work as an o-level subject when the governors thought it was below them. Those are the things I shall remember more than the cane.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 62-69

Prior to AEW, the appointment of prefects was a mystery to me. In his first term (September 1958)as head,he opened up the selection process and allowed all in the upper 6th to submit a list of fellow U6th formers for consideration as prefects. We were told that members of staff were doing the same. That system "produced" the group in the photo "Watthey's Prefects 1959" under "Other class photos". From memory there were 7 from the 1st XV and 4 from the 2nd XV( a mixture of "Fat Boys" and "The Girls" to use Mickie Skinner's categories.). Given that there were only about 30 in the U6th, those figures are not surprising.I do not recall hearing of or knowing about any application of the cane by AEW during the years 58-60 - in part possibly because the "bruisers" alluded to above and their colleagues assiduously carried out their extra-classroom duties with tenacity and humour.
What struck me particularly at that time was the good-humour and care shown by fellow prefects for the safety and well-being of 1st and 2nd formers, especially between school and the Alice Street annexe where they had assembly and registration.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Ian Dable [late '58 or early '59] caned at least twice.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

OK Peter,

'Casual corporal punishment by staff was already forbidden by AEW (this was 1968)'

What took him so long ??

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 60-65

Current location (optional) Keighley

Surely it is now time to draw a line under arguments about AEW's liberal/reactionary views about corporal punishment. None of us, not even Peter, can know for sure, and it's entirely possible that Joe changed his view over the years.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) Leeds

Just to add Peter Watthey's spirited defence of his father's tenure as headmaster I would also like to add that on the few occasions AEW actually taught my class I thought he was excellent. And as a public speaker he certainly was very high standard indeed.

But I would take issue with Peter over the School Council which received national press coverage. Joe very carefully ensured that some important aspects of school did not come under the remit of the Council.

This naturally included any criticism of himself or the staff. To my mind the School Council was very good for boosting the school's image and 'Joe' future employment possibilities. But its inability to adress real issues led its early demise.

As regards the demonstration at the Dutch Barn could Peter expand on that because I only vaguely recall it. And certainly not why it occurred.

These events are outside my experience - but perhaps foreshadow what once over was called PR, John Major called "presentation" and is now called "spin".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

NO SPIN FROM ME !!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 60-65

Current location (optional) Keighley

I think I'm going to get caned for this.......
When I started school (1944), corporal punishment was administered to pupils from age 3/4/5 upwards. In the younger years it was not violent - but certain in certain circumstances. Children knew when their conduct would produce anxiety.
In my secondary education, corporal punishment was more severe and at times it really hurt. Yet although a frequent recipient of some heavy stuff, I don't recall harbouring grudges against the perpetrators although I cursed their stupidity when they got the wrong boy (especially if it was me).
When I became a teacher, corporal punishment was allowed as long as it was recorded in the punishment book. Teaching in a rough boys' school for 4 years, along with my senior colleagues, I applied the pump (gym shoe) and occasionally the cane (all recorded). Always seeking effect rather than pain, it was possible to "punish" boys without pain - "pour encourager les autres" and the beaten was able to boast "Di'n't 'urt".
My next appointment was in a girls' school where I operated a distinctly hands off policy.
By the time I worked in a mixed secondary school, corporal punishment was "outre" and never used.
Since the '70s the progress has been towards Education Authorities, Her Majesty's Government and the European Union outlawing the application of any sanction against "children" which involved any physical contact. I recall from the earliest days when corporal punishment was first decried, the reason given was that it made the victim (more) violent. ("Violence breeds violence"). I tended to accept that premise because it was nearly always the pupil who showed violence to his fellows who got punished. Chicken or Egg?? Now parents are admonished if they "smack" - and let's be honest they have not done so for many years and have indeed taken an even more conciliatory approach and "spoiled" their children - right up to maturity (and sometimes beyond).
If you accept the thesis, as I did, that physical punishment engenders violent children, it would seem reasonable to expect that recent cohorts of youngsters would be non-violent and considerate to their fellows of all categories - both equals and "dominants". After all, they are the least smacked generation.
This expectation has been shown to be not unreasonable - but a folly. Currently, this least punished generation of young people - including young minors - is the most vicious and violent generation I have witnessed.
My antithesis is not to say that physical punishment will produce a non-violent child. What I am advancing is that the kid-glove (emotive expression!!) approach has not worked.
I am more worried what a generation of rude, selfish and indulged aggressors will produce. Possibly if their young interfere with their own over-indulged self-indulgence they will bring out the rod to spare themselves.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

Well done Terry for airing the subject and for admitting that you may have been mistaken .I never have accepted that physical punishment engenders violent children and you submit good evidence showing that the reverse does not work . So much for 30 or 40 yrs of progressive thought.If the customary punishments had been adhered to all along , the present mess that society is in would not have occurred.Bear in mind that the amount of TV violence and Video Game violence has also contributed and add to that the lax attitude to excess alcohol cosumption by the youth of today and is it any wonder that they are damned near impossible to control.They need disipline from an early age and it needs to be maintained. If only the politicians in charge had the guts to reverse the policies which allowed this to happen, we would not now be faced with a generation growing up bound to perpetuate the mistakes made well into the future.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 43-46

Current location (optional) Sassafras, Tasmania

Terry~~ Thanks for your interesting posting. I can't argue against your conclusion. How long will it take?

The ultimate result in shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.- Herbert Spencer.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 53-58

Current location (optional) Brighouse

On TV news on Monday this week in NZ, Papakura High School (South Auckland)has a big problem with "girl gangs' beating up other girls. The news feature showed a 13 year old girl being escorted home by a security guard for protection.I lived in that town,now city, for 5 years in the mid/late 60's and the Head then was a former All Black prop forward. He never had any problems with discipline. Last week a Catholic Boys College in Auckland was also featured on TV news with boys scrapping and filmed on cell phones,which were posted on U tube. The participants identified have been suspended. Last month Hutt Valley High School, a prominent college near Wellington was featured when drug problems surfaced. This is little old NZ-I hate to think of the problems of some really big cities.It all comes back to a lack of discipline which in turn breeds a lack of respect for others.
Keep at it Terry.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 47-51

Current location (optional) Auckland NZ

As usual Terry's posting is highly perceptive, reflective and refrains from simplistic assessments - "My antithesis is not to say that physical punishment will produce a non-violent child. What I am advancing is that the kid-glove (emotive expression!!) approach has not worked."
Like Terry I taught for much of my working life - in areas which it is now fashionable to call "less well off" in Sheffield, the West Midlands, Oldham, Dewsbury and Wakefield. In my experience the proportion of students who are violent/aggressive has remained much the same. What has changed significantly is the attitude of the parents of these students. Many are now very unsupportive of teachers and are often as violent/aggressive as their offspring.
It may be that the sanctions available to teachers today have played a part in leading us to the present position - we'll never know. In teaching statistics I always used to emphasise that a correlation between two events did not mean that one had caused the other. If it did then one could easily argue that Big Macs, mobile 'phones or cheap flights have led to a less disciplined society.
A large part of me wishes that the significant restrictions on the use of corporal punishment were responsible for the breakdown we see in sections of our society. It would mean that:-
1. Schools have a major effect on moulding society.
2. We could easily fix it by reintroducing such punishments.
Unfortunately I think it is a more complex and more intractable problem.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Nothing to do with his caning technique, but there is now a colour photo of the man himself on the site.

Having just looked at the photo of AEW, I was interested to see him sporting a beard of which I have no recollection. Did he have it during his early years at KGS or was it an acquisition from another era? Can anyone help jog my memory?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

I do seem to recollect the beard episode - a bit ill advised and Mephistophelean I thought at the time...BTW how old do you think Joe would have been when this picture was taken. Many years younger than we are now, I'd say. If you imagine him without the beard and moustache, he'd probably be mid or even early forties?

Date on the back of the photo is Aug 1970.

...which I think makes him late 40s or early 50s

That would make him about 37 when he took over at kbgs - a high flier.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

The Devil looks after his own!!!!!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 55-60

Current location (optional) Harrogate

You were doing well, at age 11 - 18, to think it "Mephistophelean" Allan. I can't even think that now, but I hope it's uncomplimentary!
At least, now I know why you scored so well on essays in the lower school.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

...no idea what it means...or how to spell it....sounds good though?

As far as I recall he was the same age as my father, b1920, so would have been 38 (or 37+) when he came to KBGS in Sept 1958.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-64

Current location (optional) Wirral

Peter's email to me in 2003 mentioned he was 83 then.

So, it all fits then.
To summarise, AEW was born in 1920, came to KGS as Head, aged 38, and had a beard when he was 50!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

I'm not sure that the beard did fit Brian.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Anybody explain why it appears that someone whom you knew and who was older than oneself always appears to oneself (crikey - this is getting a bit too much Court of St James)to be older than oneself in photographs taken at a time when they were younger than oneself is now?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

I think you mean that the bearded Joe looks older than you feel now. I just got in from gardening so I don't feel as you do - but I will when I get back from the pub.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Current location (optional) leeds

Just got in from the pub, Shaun. I see what you mean. Do you feel like this often?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

I was caned twice by Mr. Watthey in his first year at the school 58/59. I was never caned by Mr. Hind in the previous four years. The caning was not witnessed nor were my parents aware of it (thank god). It stung a bit but was in no way excessively applied. Reading on this thread of his leniency in some cases, I am surprised he didn't let me off with a warning. My offense in both cases doesn't sound so bad if you say it quickly - talking in class. (More likely it was persistent talking in class after several warnings.) The reason he didn't let me off as a first offender was possibly esprit de corps. The teacher who sent me to him was the same on both occasions: my maths teacher Mr. Moore who was, I think, a fellow preacher. By conviction, I suppose, he refused to administer his own corporal punishment, which is why we took advantage of him. None of which means I approve of corporal punishment. Its effectiveness as a deterrent is as independent of its rightness or wrongness as are those of capital punishment or nuclear bombs.
Can anyone remember this poor teacher whose life we made hell. I must be confused because I remember him as "holy Joe"; but that can't be right: wasn't that Mr Watthey's nickname?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 54-59

Current location (optional) Denholme

It was 'Creep' Moore, and yes we gave him merry hell too!

The Rev.J.F.Moore(aka'Creep')taught me General Science in year 1 and maths in year 3. In neither case do I recall him being given Merry Hell. In fact, as far as I recollect, he seemed a damned good mathematician.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Some classes behaved better than others Brian and you were obviously in one of those! I'm sure Creep was a good mathematician but that didn't stop us pushing him to the limit.

Gareth, do you drink and drive ? If not why not ?

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 41/46

Current location (optional) I.O.M.

To fill out the picture of Joe Watthey's caning policy, if not technique, a little more: talking to my brother (1959-63) about it the other day he recalled the head being sent for by Crouch when half his class had failed to hand in homework. Watthey tirelessly whacked the lot in front of the class.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 54-59

Current location (optional) Denholme

Over the years we have spoken a lot about the sadistic nature of our former masters. Sydney is about to host World Youth Day, a Roman Catholic thing that brings 100, 000's of young people from around the world to kiss the pope's ring or whatever they do. Naturally, the usual s**t hs hit the fan about the RC church covering up sexual abuse. Just think if we had attended an RC grammar school, we would not only have had sadistic teachers, but child molesters as well.

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-61

A couple I could name came pretty close to it anyway!

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 58-65

Rather belatedly, I am surprised at this account - that Stoker should take a boy to the Head (Watthey) for punishment - there must have been some top-down requirement to do this. Stoker had always dealt with the misdemeanours of boys in his classes/labs with his own responses - usually very effective. Perhaps staff were under pressure to take the really naughty boys (eg Brian) to the boss for a bashing to raise the profile and reputation of "Zorro".

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 52-60

Current location (optional) Lincoln

I was never caned but all in all think I was given a fine education at KBGS despite my greater interests elswhere

Years at KBGS e.g. 1958-1964 (optional) 1962 -69

Current location (optional) St Andrews

I was never caned at all nor assaulted by book, chalk, ruler or hand by anyone. I wasn't a particularly 'good' boy, I just behaved and enjoyed my life there.