G'day,

Same old sad sorry story for me too I'm afraid with bad experiences at both Croydon Park and Epping RSL's in 1967 and 1974. Yet, no worse experience I suppose could be envisaged than that for the Jackson family in the village of Greta, NSW. When the body of Robert Jackson of 8RAR was brought back home, the Board of the local RSL refused permission for him to be buried in their war graves section of the local cemetery (see 'The Australian' 3rd October 1992).

The old RSL building today is closed, dilapidated and abandoned, the old 'dinosaurs' are long dead and the war memorial monument in the park opposite the old club in the middle of town still has no mention of Vietnam on it.

On a lighter note, I'm reminded of those immortal words from Groucho Marx:
"PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T CARE TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME!"

It seems our wives experienced the same disgraceful attitude from some RSL branches as did the returning Vietnam veterans themselves. In this website’s forum the widow of 2Lt Brian Walker, who was killed in action in March 1969, reports a distressing rejection of her and other wives of Vietnam veterans by the War Widows Guild at Coogee RSL. She says:
“As soon as I entered the room and introduced myself and explained my circumstances I was told in no uncertain terms that my husband being killed in SVN did not qualify me for membership or help, support etc., from them. That was not a WAR and I was not welcome at their meetings.”

What a disgrace!

Readers of this forum will note my earlier request for balance in this discussion but not one person has responded with positive stories about Vietnam veterans in the RSL. I do note however that some Vietnam veterans are RSL members today and hold executive positions, so it is hoped they remember the poor reception received back in the 1960s and 1970s and ensure a better RSL attitude towards our service personnel who served in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor, Somalia, etc.

Hi All,
I was a member of 5RAR on the 1st tour. I like you all had a hell of a time from the RSL when I returned from Vietnam. My wife was also refused to be allowed to enter Liverpool RSL while I was in Vietnan.
In 1982 I joined the RSL but only lasted one meeting as I was told by the WW2 diggers and the 3 month Nashos that I didn't serve in a War and I should stay at home. I did this until a few years ago (2001)after I found out that I suffered from PTSD and I found out that there was a large number of Veterans who were the same as me.
I am now the Hon/Secretary of a NSW RSL Sub-Branch. The only reason that I took on this position was to help Vietnam Veterans and Peacekeepers and the troops from Iraq etc. I do not want these Veterans to go through the trauma and rejection that I received from the RSL. I believe the culture in the RSL is changing and as soon as Bill Crews gets out of the Federal Body things will improve.

Hi All,
I am currently the President of our sub branch in Jandowae (22) members.Lack of interest by current members will see the sub branch close on 31 Dec 2006, as no one wants a job on the top table.OK so be it, but the most galling part of the whole procedure is that State HQ in Brisbane will NOT return my calls for assistance to shut down the sub branch.Dave Wilkins knows me, So Im going to do it my way, and stuff State HQ.
Dont ask me why I joined the RSL again,because I dont really know,perhaps a little pressure to be in the team again.

After my discharge in 1976 I applied in person at the Tweed Heads RSL to join the sub branch and was given the appropriate form and told to fill it out.I did and was told to get someone at the bar to second it.When I asked who were the sub branch members as opposed to associates, I was told "It doesn't matter a stuff, just get it signed".I tore it up in front of said person and suggested seeing it was in four pieces he might find a better use for it.
Another RSL in Tasmania had a distinct wall between real soldiers and the rest of us, so you may well ask, why I go back for more.Perhaps I need Dave Wilkins or Pirate Harrod to give me a good whack round the ears, but I think Ive got the message this time.

Hi Kiwi,

From your message it seems as though all State RSL HQs are the same. They want your money from subs and when you are going well they want to know you but when you are going bad its a different story. I am sorry that you have to close your branch but do it YOUR WAY, after all it is an honary non paid position.
As I said before I am in it to help Veterans in their attempt to get pensions and better living conditions.
Jack

Hi Jack,
That was my main motivation as well, as my wife and I are both pensions and welfare officers,but I guess the time has come.

Regards Kiwi

Kiwi,
I sure do know you well, mate, and it is a shame the RSL is loosing good blokes like yourself, particularly as you and your wife are both pension and welfare officers. It's their loss mate. All the best to an old platoon sgt of C Coy.


Jack,
I don't think I know you, but well done on your position in the RSL Sub-Branch. Hopefully people with your military background and bad RSL experiences might help sort out the current regime. They certainly need a reef in the backside.

Cheers

Dave

Have been asked by the Qld Branch to place on record that the non-response to Kiwi's calls was because of the old regime.
Chris McHugh, Chief Executive Officer, RSL (Qld Branch) has placed on record the below.

"I spoke to Russell Hill today, was only requested to call him this morning (5 hr turnaround, can't complain), he explained his frustration was to do with the previous administration, they had never replied to his concerns or calls.

Problem he faces relates to the team getting older, only three Vietnam vets one Korean and the rest WW2, so major problems. They are having the Special AGM tomorrow and expect to shut early in the New Year; we will transfer them to either the unattached list or Dalby, whatever they desire. We discussed the disposal of assets and the need to ensure their memory remains.

Russell was happy with the conversation; Ken Benson will call him Wednesday after their meeting tomorrow.


Mr Chris McHugh
Chief Executive Officer

Well done Chris. You are making a difference already.

Dave

Hi All,
A very interesting discussion,indeed.Hi Ted, as you reported above that is exactly what happened in regards to State RSL. I should have stated that my problems did occur with the previous regime, and that the current state members were most helpful.To those interested, the meeting that I called, resulted in two most unexpected members putting their hands up, so the Sub Branch will continue to function for at least another 12 months.
As to myself, well that is another matter. When my membership runs out in December, I will not be a member of the RSL, as Im still far from happy with the way the national HQ appears to be in bed with the Govt and DVA, but I do thank the current state members for their help last week and wish them well in their current term in office. They have a hell of a big job in front of them to repair the damage.

Regards Kiwi

Hi Kiwi,

Looks like you did good in getting the sub-branch to remain. Pity you are giving the RSL away, they really need people like you, but I can understand you reasons for giving the RSL away. Maybe one day the boffins in HQ will wake up to themselves. The main trouble is (especially in NSW) is that a lot of the people that work in the HQs have never been oversear or seen was like action. A lot have never been in the services.

For those who don't know me I was in the 5 RAR Band and a streacher bearer/medic in Vietnam.

To all in this forum, Im not a serviceman, nor ever was, so apologies for crashing. I do feel i should say, as a younger aussie speaking at least on behalf of the many I know, that your sacrifices were as valuable to us, and our nation as those of any previous war, in some ways more. you did what our govt asked of you, and you got no recognition for it, and in fact copped the flack, and with classic aussie grin-and-bear-it style here you all are.

our government is, and perhaps was at fault in the whole affair. That is its tragedy.

You did your duty more than well, and the country failed to recognise it. That, I fear, is ours.

Best Regards,
D

D, thankyou for your thoughts; you are most welcome to our website.
As you say, we did as our government asked, but you may be surprised to know that most of us supported the government position at a time of a Communist threat to our north. We were willing combatants and despite many Australians protesting our participation in the war, there were many more who supported it.

I, for one, do not consider the government to have been at fault.

Yes, while we did our duty some of our population failed us, but only some- those who marched in the moratoriums carrying the enemy Viet Cong flag, those in the unions who, for example, stopped our mail from being sent to us, and those of the RSL whose actions are described in the entries above.

Dave you say we were all proud and happy to go to Vietnam, if we were so keen why did we have to have conscription ,and i for one was just as proud of my participation in the moratorium marches as my service in vietnam.

As this website has historical objectives as well as having this public forum facility, I feel obliged to respond to Alec.

I think the answer to Alec’s question on Australia’s need for National Service is that the Regular Army just wasn’t big enough, and on one point he is correct: there weren’t enough volunteers for the Army’s increasing needs. National Service (NS) was required for this.

But that wasn’t the end of the story; we found that once NS began, most Nashos (not all of course, because within those conscripted ranks were young men who were pacifists and conscientious objectors), but most wanted to make the most of things once their marble had rolled.

Whilst I cannot account for those Nashos outside the following story, this was the situation upon which I base my understanding of the general feeling amongst them at the time.

In 1968 during 5RAR’s preparation for active service we had to build up our numbers to full establishment strength, which, for us was about 800, all ranks. It was government policy that there be a 50:50 ratio of Regulars to National Servicemen in the unit. About mid-1968 I was dispatched from Holsworthy to Kapooka near Wagga Wagga where there were large numbers of Nashos being put through their basic training.

I had gone with a shopping list: 5RAR needed so many riflemen, so many mortar men, signallers, cooks, medics and so on. I addressed a group of several hundred troops, explaining the state of 5RAR, my task in obtaining the best personnel and the future role of the battalion over the next 18 months in Australia and Vietnam. I then said:

“Our Commanding Officer (LTCOL C.N. Khan) does not want any soldier who is unwilling to serve with 5RAR in South Vietnam. Once selected however, it will be tough and there won’t be any withdrawing until the job is done. Think carefully. Anyone not wishing to be considered may leave the room now and there won’t be any recriminations. That is not the aim. Our aim is to get the best team.”

Only a handful of soldiers left the room. I therefore had several hundred from which to make my selections. Afterwards, I was talking with some of these Nashos and asked them what their thought process was. I found their answers fascinating. Almost to a man the answer I received was something similar to:

“Sir, I wasn’t all that keen on being drafted, but when my marble rolled, I wanted to do the full bit: active service in Vietnam, the lot.”

The result was a large group of well-motivated recruits joining our battalion.

That is the basis for my understanding at the time.

As for the moratorium marches, I didn’t (and still don’t) have a problem with people expressing their democratic views. Our major gripe however, was about those protesters matching behind the enemy VC flag. THAT was treasonous.

Dave, I was a volunteer in the army. (Regular army supplement, whatever that was suppose to mean). And one of the things that really perplexed me was the failure of the Army to hold on to the "Nasho's".

These men were from every walk of life and their ranks contained some of the finest and best educated young men I have ever had the privilege to meet.

Yet, from my own experience after returning, nothing seemed to be done to hold on to them. When their time was up they were just allowed to leave the Army without any effort on the Army's part to keep them.

Or has my memory, or lack off, made my view a jaundiced one?

Alan.

Alan,
Some stayed in, the majority didn't. I am unaware of how the policy-makers approached it. Of course at the time you and I were without knowledge of such info and were just small cogs in the big wheel.

hi all well the RSL has not let me down, i was taken to hospital by ambulance two weeks ago and on arrival all the paper work completed lovely young nurse asked..can i contact the RSL to let them know you are here, being a bit down and very ill i said yes that would be nice, 8 days later i left hospital to come home and recover and yes the RSL still has not contacted me, to be fair i am not a member of a sub branch only a social member as i am still waiting for the sub branch paperwork to arrive, all the best john hellyer

G'day Dave and everyone,
I guess that sums it up well Dave.We had to have the so called Pogo's,but a lot seem to think time has dimmed the memories and Foot in Mouth won't be noticed these days. Fat chance !!!Some are even running of at the mouth in the national papers.Ah well, and I cant even get a change of greens at the Q Store these days.????

Ladies and Gentleman who have contributed to this website and in particular to this forum discussion,

I have just sent the following email to the HQ of the RSL which notifies them of this forum and seeks their response. We shall wait and see.


RSL HQ
Dear Sir,

You may be interested to know why your numbers have dwindled over the years since the WW 2 veterans began to pass on. If you look at the following veterans' website forum you might begin to get the picture of an exclusory arrogance by RSL members and its associates, an attitude which immediately alienated combat soldiers and war widows who were deserved of support from your organization.

Please go to:
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/3092962264/show/626522

You may even wish to place an RSL response on our forum. We would appreciate your explanation.

Yours faithfully,
Dave Wilkins
Infantry veteran from the Vietnam War

Hello All, I understand why most of you dislike the RSL, my husband was treated much the same way. However he has been a member at our local sub-branch for some years now and does a lot of work there. This year they were having trouble getting a committee and I was approached to be the Hon. Secretary, a job which sends me insane at times but I enjoy. Our sub-branch President is also a Vietnam Vet and yes he has encountered similar attitudes. The only way to change things is to get into a sub-branch and work from the inside and try to get attitudes and policies changed.The National Secretary of the RSL is a vietnam vet and he appreciates what you are all up against and is working to try and get things changed as well. However I think all State Head Offices must be staffed with the same ignorant biased people all over Australia.
Sorry I've raved on a bit, but my point is, Don't give up keep hacking away at them, eventually we have got to win !!!