As this website has historical objectives as well as having this public forum facility, I feel obliged to respond to Alec.

I think the answer to Alec’s question on Australia’s need for National Service is that the Regular Army just wasn’t big enough, and on one point he is correct: there weren’t enough volunteers for the Army’s increasing needs. National Service (NS) was required for this.

But that wasn’t the end of the story; we found that once NS began, most Nashos (not all of course, because within those conscripted ranks were young men who were pacifists and conscientious objectors), but most wanted to make the most of things once their marble had rolled.

Whilst I cannot account for those Nashos outside the following story, this was the situation upon which I base my understanding of the general feeling amongst them at the time.

In 1968 during 5RAR’s preparation for active service we had to build up our numbers to full establishment strength, which, for us was about 800, all ranks. It was government policy that there be a 50:50 ratio of Regulars to National Servicemen in the unit. About mid-1968 I was dispatched from Holsworthy to Kapooka near Wagga Wagga where there were large numbers of Nashos being put through their basic training.

I had gone with a shopping list: 5RAR needed so many riflemen, so many mortar men, signallers, cooks, medics and so on. I addressed a group of several hundred troops, explaining the state of 5RAR, my task in obtaining the best personnel and the future role of the battalion over the next 18 months in Australia and Vietnam. I then said:

“Our Commanding Officer (LTCOL C.N. Khan) does not want any soldier who is unwilling to serve with 5RAR in South Vietnam. Once selected however, it will be tough and there won’t be any withdrawing until the job is done. Think carefully. Anyone not wishing to be considered may leave the room now and there won’t be any recriminations. That is not the aim. Our aim is to get the best team.”

Only a handful of soldiers left the room. I therefore had several hundred from which to make my selections. Afterwards, I was talking with some of these Nashos and asked them what their thought process was. I found their answers fascinating. Almost to a man the answer I received was something similar to:

“Sir, I wasn’t all that keen on being drafted, but when my marble rolled, I wanted to do the full bit: active service in Vietnam, the lot.”

The result was a large group of well-motivated recruits joining our battalion.

That is the basis for my understanding at the time.

As for the moratorium marches, I didn’t (and still don’t) have a problem with people expressing their democratic views. Our major gripe however, was about those protesters matching behind the enemy VC flag. THAT was treasonous.

Dave, I was a volunteer in the army. (Regular army supplement, whatever that was suppose to mean). And one of the things that really perplexed me was the failure of the Army to hold on to the "Nasho's".

These men were from every walk of life and their ranks contained some of the finest and best educated young men I have ever had the privilege to meet.

Yet, from my own experience after returning, nothing seemed to be done to hold on to them. When their time was up they were just allowed to leave the Army without any effort on the Army's part to keep them.

Or has my memory, or lack off, made my view a jaundiced one?

Alan.

Alan,
Some stayed in, the majority didn't. I am unaware of how the policy-makers approached it. Of course at the time you and I were without knowledge of such info and were just small cogs in the big wheel.

hi all well the RSL has not let me down, i was taken to hospital by ambulance two weeks ago and on arrival all the paper work completed lovely young nurse asked..can i contact the RSL to let them know you are here, being a bit down and very ill i said yes that would be nice, 8 days later i left hospital to come home and recover and yes the RSL still has not contacted me, to be fair i am not a member of a sub branch only a social member as i am still waiting for the sub branch paperwork to arrive, all the best john hellyer

G'day Dave and everyone,
I guess that sums it up well Dave.We had to have the so called Pogo's,but a lot seem to think time has dimmed the memories and Foot in Mouth won't be noticed these days. Fat chance !!!Some are even running of at the mouth in the national papers.Ah well, and I cant even get a change of greens at the Q Store these days.????

Ladies and Gentleman who have contributed to this website and in particular to this forum discussion,

I have just sent the following email to the HQ of the RSL which notifies them of this forum and seeks their response. We shall wait and see.


RSL HQ
Dear Sir,

You may be interested to know why your numbers have dwindled over the years since the WW 2 veterans began to pass on. If you look at the following veterans' website forum you might begin to get the picture of an exclusory arrogance by RSL members and its associates, an attitude which immediately alienated combat soldiers and war widows who were deserved of support from your organization.

Please go to:
http://pub37.bravenet.com/forum/3092962264/show/626522

You may even wish to place an RSL response on our forum. We would appreciate your explanation.

Yours faithfully,
Dave Wilkins
Infantry veteran from the Vietnam War

Hello All, I understand why most of you dislike the RSL, my husband was treated much the same way. However he has been a member at our local sub-branch for some years now and does a lot of work there. This year they were having trouble getting a committee and I was approached to be the Hon. Secretary, a job which sends me insane at times but I enjoy. Our sub-branch President is also a Vietnam Vet and yes he has encountered similar attitudes. The only way to change things is to get into a sub-branch and work from the inside and try to get attitudes and policies changed.The National Secretary of the RSL is a vietnam vet and he appreciates what you are all up against and is working to try and get things changed as well. However I think all State Head Offices must be staffed with the same ignorant biased people all over Australia.
Sorry I've raved on a bit, but my point is, Don't give up keep hacking away at them, eventually we have got to win !!!

Kerry, I commend you for your actions and those of your husband in serving the veteran community. I note you say that he has encountered similar attitudes to the ones we have been discussing in this forum, so we members of this association just ask that he continue with his leader’s role to change the attitude of those members of the RSL who try to adversely distinguish between veterans of the different wars. As I said at the beginning of this forum, bullets, shrapnel and land mines do not discriminate in their victims; they kill or maim in exactly the same way, however large or small the conflict, and whatever the theatre of war, be it World War II, Vietnam, East Timor, Iraq or Afghanistan.
I suggest again that those who “spin warries” (nothing wrong with that in itself, if true) and claim that recent conflicts weren’t “real wars” like their own, are very likely people who were never in actual combat. Usually they are “wannabe warriors”.
Maybe there should be an education program within the RSL movement to remind members of the RSL, particularly those who have the responsibility for dealing with new (veteran) members or recent war widows seeking support, of the need for a less biased and less blinkered attitude.

David, in 1967 my service medals were questioned and indeed ridiculed at an RSL Club that will remain nameless. What made this confrontation particularly infuriating was that I was with some of my diggers who felt intimidated and reluctant to respond. After all some of them although men in my eyes were still boys in the eyes of the agitators and that made it very hurtful. We all left the Club went to a local pub where in fact we were lauded and a lot of free beer all around. It’s amazing what difference a kilometer and a contrasting demographic makes. I have never belonged to an RSL Club until yesterday where the RAR Association SA has taken over (totally bloodless) the Burnside RSL and as an Association we have formed a new branch of the RSL. Our motives and objectives are simple. When you have an outdated and anarchistic organization like the present RSL which has management who either don’t care or are out of touch; a Constitution that is in the dark ages and would not stand up in any normal commercial environment and suffering the antipathy of the ex Vietnam servicemen there is only one thing that you can do and that’s to change the organization from within. That’s what we hope to achieve in this far flung outpost of the Battalion and RAR Association. Food for thought or blowing in the wind but at least we are having a go to rectify a wrong of some 40 years ago.

Yours Regimentally
Mick

PS The Queensland RSL has undergone enormous change through good leadership and a commitment to honor their charter and many other State RSL organizations must follow to put pressure on those responsible at the national level. I think its called the “domino theory!”

Mick,
Nice to hear from you mate.
It's a disgrace you and your diggers experienced such humiliation from those ignorant RSL members. It makes me so angry to think that people can actually treat different wars like little kids comparing their dicks- whose is the biggest (and/or ugliest)?
One thing is for sure- those of us who have experienced this RSL attitude in the past will ensure it doesn’t happen on our watch in such organizations now and in the future. I suspect that with blokes like you and Moose Dunlop over there in SA the place is in good hands, so good luck in your endeavours- it definitely isn’t blowing in the wind. All the best, Mick.
Kind regards,
Dave

IMO the RSL and other Return Service Associations mistreatment of Vietnam veterans is going to backfire on them spectacularly . The odd exception such as already been noted in this thread aside there isnt going to be anyone to run the likes of the RSL .

I haven't been around long enough to say if the good crowd attendances at Anzac dawn services represent society having matured in that aspect some what since the Vietnam era . However I can say that I hope that all the veterans in question now feel a welcome part of the Anzac legacy as they are now regarded by others .

I realise this thread has been going for some time, but, had to put my 2 bobs worth in . As far as I am concerned the R&SL is totally defunct . I did not renew my membership with Parramatta R&SL last year(joined 1969 as my stepdad was a member), the R&SL is all about recruitment and they are flailing dismally as they have NO connection with the ADF, all they want is pokie players to attend their bigger/better/unified to survive venues for the old hangers on to dribble that they established this and that(BUT,FORGOT ALONG THE WAY that THEY live in the past and we don't need to hear their total CRUD anymore.

The attitude shown by some of the older veterans towards us of the Vietnam War is the subject of a very feeling “Letter to Uncle John” by Bob Cavill in the “Once We Were Soldiers” section of this website. Check it out at:
http://www.5rar.asn.au/soldiers/uncle-john.htm

I opted out of Parramatta RSL last year(since'68),they know naught of veterans ,they don't care,quite happy to add pokies and attempt to keep afloat, they are sinking,stinking and wrinkling,and I don't give one iota about their "movement" (read,dump). .

I do not wear the inf.combat badge however there are pogos who were blown off the dozers in landclearing there were pogos blown up in carriers going to help other armoured comrades,There was a raeme sgt who went to help other carriers and did all the medivacs,and vehicle recovery.I went out with 4Rar and to the 165 eng.combat btn at lai khe with the big red 1, nothing happened and I was probably a burden to 4RAR and the americans were strange.Not my fault that I was a pogo I did 2 tours and went where they sent me.We were all australian soldiers there are no other better no matter what unit.

Jack T ;
I agree with your comments re the non -combat personnel, and the point that we were all Australian soldiers, the point is well taken becouse the one cannot exist without the other..
It is well for all to understand that it takes 3-5 people to keep one combat soldier in the field.

Around 1973 On asking a man looking for work what he had done before applying for a position with this NSW Government Department, he answered he had just left the Army and that he had lately returned from Vietnam, he was in fact a Vietnam Veteran. I asked him what unit he had served with, he said he was a 'base walla' drove a forklift in the base at Vung Tau' he said he had had a good time...really!.
I told him I would get him an immediate start with the Dept' as a Plant Operator' because of his honesty'. He and myself then became good friends over the next few years.
Those soldiers who are honest will always get respect from any other soldiers combat or otherwise. But you must allow us of the infantry to be just a little jealous (or should I say sensitive) re' the combat badge.
It can be' and is in fact justifiably worn by others than the Infantry.
In the memory of those who fell' we ask only that 'if you wear it' you be able to justify it.
Bob C