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WNG census numbering logic ?

I am trying to find out what census number there would been on a WNG project that I have.
I am using the list on Draganfly's website.
The WNG project has a frame and engine that left the factory as a pair -matching- on the 15th of may 1944, in time for Normandy I would guess.
Matching of frame and engine is pretty rare for a WD bike so I would like to find out the correct census number.
Assuming that the census numbers where allocated to the bikes in sequence, I think I have it narrowed down to just 2 possible census numbers.
Question is, are census numbers in sequence on the frame or on the engine number ?
(if they where given in sequence to any bike that showed up at the factory outlet gate then forget it!)

email (option): info@wetblast.nl

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

In sequence on the frame number Vincent. It sounds like yours might be from the same contract as mine (S4554) Share the frame number with me if you want and I'll see what calculation I make it. How have you arrived at the exact date? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Just a word of caution on this as I had extensive correspondence with Chilwell throughout the 1970s and early 80s. I raised with them on a number of occasions the logic of census numbers being applied consecutively to frame and engine numbers. Whilst they agreed this did happen it was not something that should be taken as always occurring and hence it cannot be guaranteed.

If you look at some of the IWM photographs of the period which are amongst the very best you can often read the engine numbers under a decent magnifying glass and with the census number also being displayed and with the contract details you can check to see if the census number for that particular machine followed the sequential issue.

I have done this a few times although I do not consider myself to be or have been a rivet counter and the Chilwell advice was indeed accurate.

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

I note that Draganfly say that the census numbers for W/NG's are not sequential to the frame numbers?? I always thought they were? Being applied on the production line.

However I applied the census number to my Velo MDD by the sequential system, only to later find out from the VOC who hold the ledgers, that I'm eleven digits out. I assumed this might be because they were a canceled French contract and maybe stored at random in a big shed?? Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Thanks Ron and Keith, From the AOMCC I recieved a dating certificate that also shows the Tab number.
I thought of this only just after posting the first post here.
A Tab number as the certificate says is; 'Tab number is the number by which the Works knew the bike'
I have asked the machine registrar from the AOMCC if he can have a look if these TAB numbers are consecutive in the ledgers.
I'll let you know.

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Think I can add a few things here... Back in 2010 I've copied a discussion on this forum between Steve Madden and Mick Holmes. Unfortunately a forum search doesn't reveal anything, but here's the text that I copied:

Last weekend on Easter Sunday, I made the effort to take my Ariel W/NG out for its first decent ride out in ages......I managed 85 miles on her, and she performed without problem. This, and the good weather that day, rekindled my affection for this particular bike and WD Ariel's in general....

Looking through some of my Ariel literature later in the week, I've noticed that the Ariel works used a "Tab" or "Works" number to identify each particular bike, rather than the frame, engine or WD "C" number. The Ministry of Supply (MOS) factory ledgers and parts lists usefully note (in the majority of cases) frame, engine and C-number allocations to many contracts, but the "Tab" number is only noted in the MOS ledgers....

This then suggests the question, were WD Ariel's built at the factory in "Tab" number sequence, rather than frame, engine or "C" number order...? The "Tab" number for my own W/NG, if read sequentially in accordance with the "C" number block allocation, is 2 digits out (suggesting C4693512) from the "C" number the bike currently carries (C4693514) and which I worked out originally by simply running the C numbers alongside the frame numbers. The siituation is further complicated by the fact that the 3,500 bikes demanded in this contract included "X" number of spare frames, engines, etc. Were these part of the 3,500 total or supplementary, and if the latter, were they numbered...?

In the case of Ariel, photographic evidence and parts lists suggest that C numbers were applied to bikes at the factory. If the works used "Tab" numbers to identify a bike, rather than any of the other numbers, then perhaps we need to look at C-numbers again in more detail...?!!

I wonder if other manufacturers employed this "tab" number works identification practice...or was it peculiar to Ariel...?

Steve Madden




Hi Steve,
Glad you are back on the bike, hope the back survived!
Just had a glance through the W/NG ledgers, and the first thing to jump out is that on every contract the tab numbers started at one! So your contract( assuming it is C11103) go from 1 -3500. The remarks we have for this contract are-
To Chilwell. As C10477, complete with pillion seat, footrests, and pannier bags at £62.00. To be delivered at 650 per calender month after C10477 is completed. To include 210 engines,158 frames and 140 gearboxes.
The later contracts do have a fair bit of info in the remarks, C13871, c/s14218, S1049 even list the names of who assembled each bike, also S3174 (RN) has the tank (C) number listed beside each entry, so the number must have been put on at the factory.
As far as I know, Ariel were the onlt factory to use tab numbers. These were used because Ariel had quite a few options be fore the war, infact you could almost have whatever you wanted fitted, so the build sheet / bike had its own number so you could keep tabs on which parts were going on what bike!
Cheers, Mick.

Mick Holmes


And I also have this page with some Ariel frame and engine numbers against the census number...

rich1

Jan

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Ah Ha! That page is bloody fantastic Jan. I've just checked those five W/NG's and the frame numbers tally sequentially with the census numbers. So this must prove that Aerial used the frame numbers and not the TAB number for allocating the census numbers.

Who would have thought a scrap of paper could be so helpful. Well done Jan.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

There is a story that prior to burning old military papers, the soldiers involved were ordered to put these in alphabatical order before setting fire to it. That is of course a joke, but in reality, if the War Office wants vehicles numbered within a system of allocated number blocks, as administrered by RAOC Chilwell, this would have been done to some strict guidelines.
The obvious one would be that a numerical sequence would be followed in giving the lowest chassis/frame number the lowest census number of the allotted block.
This would be supported by the evidence as present in remaining key cards. Although the keycards that survived list the actual working vehicles prior to transfer into the new system of two digits, two letters and two digits, with a lot of elbow grease you could come up with some answers.

And in some 35+ years of collecting British pamphlets and paperwork, I have only found one booklet specifying a non numerical sequence in numbering some Austin trucks. And indeed I have come across several of this exact booklet.

email (option): rpa@robvanmeel.nl

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Thanks "Rob Little Lorry" for your input. The other exception is as I described earlier with Velocette MDD's. The frame and census numbers were not in sinc. But that's Veloce! Several strange things happened there. Hopefully catch you and Axe at W&P next year....Covid allowing! Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Thanks Jan, Rob and Ron,
Right, Aha! I have to digest this for a moment.
To extend this puzzle: I just got a note from the AOMCC archivist saying that the sequence is in the engine number, Arghhh.
I asked him for a copy of the ledgers :thinking_face:
To be continued

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Well since the engine numbers run in sequence of the frame numbers, I guess it's the same difference. I'll check the engine numbers against the census numbers from Jan's list later, to see if it gives the same result.

Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

OK I just checked all five of those engine numbers against the census numbers and none of them line up. So to me it means that the engines were fitted at random and the census numbers were allocated in sequence of the frame numbers.......I'm happy with that. Ron

email (option): ronpier@talk21.com

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

For this WNG project,
If I take it from the engine number the census number ends with a 6 .
From the frame number the census number ends with a 9.

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

Hello All, it gets rather confusing now. I recieved a answer from both the AOMCC membership secretary and the AOMCC archivist that the Ariel works did not apply the census numbers at the factory but that those numbers where done by whoever recieved them.
Apart from 'small' deliveries to the Royal Navy who requested that the works applied the numbers.
That stands opposed to what I read here about the factory applying the numbers at the Works.
Are there any period pictures taken at the factory that shows WNG models with the census numbers applied?
Or if there are pictures, are those maybe made at the Army depots?
The picture above with the page from a ledger, it does look different to the ledgers I have seen from the Ariel factory.
Even the riders are mentioned, from which department comes this ledger ?

Re: WNG census numbering logic ?

The problem is that apparently nobody ever did some serious research on the WD Ariel models. Definitely not in the same way as I have researched the WD Royal Enfields, and others have done the WD BSA and WD Norton. So... Census number styles before 1942 are a bit "chaotic", but period photographs from 1942 onwards show very distinctive styles for the census numbers on the different makes. I have made DXF drawings of the Royal Enfield census number style, low tack stencils are available from Axholme. The typical "styles" for the other makes can be seen below:

Schermafbeelding-2020-10-25-om-14-01-20

As can be seen above and below, Ariel had a very distinctive "stencil" style. The fact that this was unique to Ariel, and the fact that every factory had its own unique style, proves that the census numbers were applied at the factory (at least from 1942 onwards). The paper that I added to a previous post proves that the census number can be calculated for each contract (again: at least from 1942 onwards).

home-guard
K004

email (option): wd.register@gmail.com

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